[Transcript starts at 3:36]
Hey guys, Maestro here and welcome back to another episode of Maestro on the Mic. Today I have a guest that is, for lack of a better phrase, changing my, uh, I found Ben Patrick on the Instagram through Keegan Smith. Um, and he goes by knees over toes guy. And I was like, what is this about this knees over toes stuff?
And for those of you who don't know, my knees have always been a bit janky. Um, for you pain science police. Yeah, I said it. They've been, been janky, kind of broken. And I started following Ben and I signed up for his online coaching and my knees have never felt. better. I've probably been doing the program for about maybe a little over three months now.
And I waited strategically to bring him on. I wanted to, you know, experience it for myself. You guys know that I'm all about that. Do it myself, early adopter, see how it goes. And the results have been nothing short of phenomenal. Um, so I was like, dude, I have to get you on. What can I do to get you on here?
And he was like, just ask. And so I asked, and here he is. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Ben Patrick. Thank you, my dude. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. Thank you so much. The introduction was wonderful. And yeah, I mean, from the moment you reached out, I was like, I was honestly blown away that you would be willing to work with me and try my stuff.
So yeah, this is just a blessing to be able to be on here and talk with you and get to know your audience more. So I'm stoked. We are all pumped, man. Like this is, this is awesome. So I'm going to flip the mic completely over to you, Ben, and just tell the people your story. Okay. Please. So I got into. A really, really bad situation because I grew up so obsessed with basketball and heard all these stories about, you know, famous players, their work ethic and how early they would wake up and all the things they would do.
And I tried to just do it all. And by honestly, by the time I was like 12, I had pretty chronic knee pain. And so if I would have grown up like a normal kid, or even, you know, uh, done things more moderately, I don't think I would have been so bad off. Um, really dug myself a hole was always trying to figure out how to get out of it.
And truthfully, from age 12 to like 21, um, I never trained with my knees over my toes and my issues went from what they would call like Osgood slaughter to then tendonitis, tendinosis, all kinds of issues. Um, eventually I had surgeries and actually just yesterday I looked back at my old Some of my old surgery papers.
Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, occasionally, it's true that occasionally someone's like wants to work with me But they're they don't believe that I actually had knee surgeries. And so I was like, hey mom We have any of those old papers? And so she sent it to me and it was actually worse than I even realized like I didn't even realize all the different Stuff that I had done and that was like my good knee I, I, so I did such a number on my knees and because of that, I was never able to get past the 19 inch vertical mark, which is so bad for basketball that it's like I was just always known as that guy who was very skilled because I at least had skills from all my, all my dedication.
But it was like, I was just such a poor athlete that I was made fun of it and it was really like impossible to get recruited to college. I didn't get recruited to college. 18, 19, 20. I couldn't even play basketball. And yeah, so at a certain point I just kept going through the same cycles of injury and rehab and injury and rehab.
And it was like I actually hit rock bottom. And I remember just kind of having that moment where I just detached myself from everything about the system that I thought I was in and just stepping outside of that and saying to myself. I remember the moment just deciding, I'm going to figure out how to bulletproof my knees.
I just want to be able to play healthy. I'm one of those guys, I love basketball so much. You know, I could go to prison for 20 years and if they had a good basketball yard, like I'd be okay. Like, right. Like I'd stay sane, but I really couldn't stay sane not playing basketball. And so, going through this endless cycle, I then started.
Seeing things which I had always thought was like totally nuts, you know Cuz plenty of people do train knees over toes to whatever degrees and that's when I first found out about Keegan Smith who I know you have a background with him and He's a wonderful guy and I remember seeing him do certain stuff and I basically just started experimenting and it was quite painful But I just pushed through the pain and pushed through the pain just to like really see if it would work because I figured I should at least like I was almost like, you know, self sabotaging at this point that I was willing to try anything.
And it was actually after pushing through quite a lot of pain that I was teaching some kids cause I was still at least respected for my skills as a player, even though I was the worst athlete ever. And I was teaching kids, you know, And I remember like, you know, they would always beg me to try to like, you know, dunk or stuff like that.
I mean, I was not even close, but on this day, I actually was able to jump up and touch the rim, which for me was like the highest I'd ever gotten. And I was in my, my knees weren't hurting as much. So right then I knew like, okay, There's something to this. I kind of freaked out. I called my best friend from high school who also was screwed up and hadn't been able to play sports.
And I was like, dude, there, this is something different. You got to like, we were workout partners in high school. I was like, yeah, you got to come join me. And so we began, you know, really diving into it. And the difference for me is that coming from such a bad off point, the advice of just like, you know, Um, some of the longstanding, uh, excellent trainers who use knees over toes exercises.
I couldn't really get into those without a lot of pain. And so, so I had to really try to figure out how to modify things and how to make it so that I didn't have to work through pain. Cause it, it did kind of like within me, I knew that pushing through pain was very risky. And yeah, so I had enough of a reality to know that like, I kind of had that aha moment of like, Oh shit, like this is what hurts my knees on the court.
So if I can figure out how to like strengthen for that, then it won't hurt on the court. So even though I was pushing, even though I was pushing daily through pain in the weight room, when I went to do a motion that normally would hurt on the court, it didn't hurt. And up to that point, I had always gone on the principle of, okay, if my knee hurts, then avoid the knee in training.
But then I would get hurt on the court. So, so, you know, time went by and I actually, I knew I was going to be able to play. So I just signed myself up for a, for a basketball team. I'd been saving up money and in America, there's basically like, there's kind of like a second chance basketball school.
There's quite a few of them in Florida, many, many of the time it's for kids who didn't have good enough grades when they were in high school. For me, it was because I literally couldn't afford it. Couldn't play cause of my knees and I was so convinced I could still play basketball. Once I knew my knees were going to be healthy.
So I actually went to one of these like postgraduate basketball schools using all the money I had saved up. I'd been painting walls for a few years while I was trying to figure out my knees. Anyways, I got a full college scholarship, played the whole season. And, and actually as I played the season, my knees kept getting better and better because basically after every single practice, While the other team did whatever workouts, I actually lied to the team and said that I had like a private trainer that I was going to and I would just go off by myself to the local gym and I was just like figuring out what actually worked.
And it was so cool to have the biofeedback of just going from testing stuff on my knees to playing, to testing, to playing, testing, playing. And then I ended up, uh, having a really good, college career now. I was already so old by this point that I only got to legally play two years of college. So I didn't get to like fully experience college.
Like I even had division one scholarship offers that I was unable to take eligibility wise because I was 23 years old at that point and in America you get a certain number of years after. So In the summer times, I started training kids out of my garage with this data, and so, as soon as, like, my couple years of college was up, then I just decided to, like, full on make it my business, but I even went out, like, a couple summers ago and played professionally in Europe, and actually did exceedingly well, and really could have pursued that, but I'll be honest, if you're not, like, on the track for the NBA, where you can make millions of dollars, Like, it's a, it's not an easy life being on the road trying to play professionally in other countries.
It's a cool life, but I am a homebody, simple kind of guy. I much preferred being here with my family, with my eventual wife, who actually Like, we started dating back when Chinese were totally effed. So, it's pretty cool now because, like, she's seen, she's seen the evolution of all this. So, even to this day, I love, like, just 20 minutes ago, I was, like, showing her a video of me dunking.
And it's, like, it's still so for both of us. Yeah. So I decided to really stay here and, and kind of build up a business. And I went from my garage to renting out a place to now having my own gym. So now I'm even looking at, um, I don't have debts. I've, I've paid off the building I'm in and I'm looking at trying to expand because one of the ways that I proved my knee stuff, they want to send through basketball.
And so now I actually have interest and started the summer training NBA players, but just, I don't have my own basketball court, which just makes it very tough to come with other top training facilities when I don't have my own court. So we're, we're doing what we can. I have a good relationship with the local school that lets me use the court, but that's kind of where I am in my, in my journey right now is I'm trying to get my own place that's spacious enough to have my own court, but I want to do it sensibly financially.
So I, I paid as much as I want to just. jump into something right now that might come with some debt, the odds are I'm just going to keep plugging away so that I can do it, you know, really risk free. But that's, that's where I'm at. I want to be training, like, top name NBA guys. And, you know, hopefully within the next one to two years I can get to that level.
If I get a court, I know I can do it because I don't just train the body in the, you know, You know, in the weight room and stuff, when it comes to basketball players specifically, I have so many tricks of the trade that most guys have no idea about that can actually turn their own practices and games into a much more healthy environment for their needs.
So that's where I'm at. That's my next goal. That's what I'm plugging away at. I want to train the top guys so that they can speak out, so that high school coaches and people down at the grassroots level can get the message and know how to take what Take care of their players needs because I had well meaning coaches, but they didn't realize that they were just throwing my knees.
Yeah, it's you guys listening should be like, just chomping at the bit with this. So like, like Ben said, when it comes to college sports, you're limited in terms of time. And that was a big thing for me is that I played college soccer and my knees have been, An issue forever and it's, it just, it hits home so hard to hear you say that like, this is all you wanted to do and that you're willing to push, you were willing to just push through the pain because realistically you're at a point where it's like, it can't get any worse.
So like, let me try and figure. And I, I mean, I've heard your story before and I heard it with, when you were on Pete Keegan's podcast and obviously following you and stuff on social media and reading the stuff you put out, but it's inspiring. You know, it's a little bit sad because I'm in the healthcare profession and we were just like, we need to do better.
But these are, this is how discoveries get made. It's the people that take their health into their own hands and are like, I. I need to figure this out and I'm willing to experiment on myself and do whatever it takes. And then, you know, Ben's being amazing and sharing this with the world. And because like he said, he's not just some crazy guy.
He's like, realize it's like you probably shouldn't just like blindly push through pain. One of the biggest and best things that I love about the online coaching that Ben uh, offers is that everything is scalable, modifiable, and everything starts off with We are not trying to push through pain. If this hurts and there's direct feedback with the coach, if this hurts, modify it this way, regress it this way.
And it's a truly humbling, um, program, I should say, because it really does start at the beginning and it's, it's exactly what is needed, you know, coming with my background as a physical therapist, I'm like, yeah, this is kind of, um, We see, uh, that he's taken the best of all different worlds. And again, another thing that Ben does amazing is that he explains why every single exercise, every single one is in the program.
I've never seen a program like that before my entire life. And I've dabbled in a bunch, none that were specifically for my knees, but just. Online programming and every single exercise that this man has in this program. He will say why what's the purpose? This is the order. I want you to do it and we do this and then we're gonna balance it out with doing this.
It's Absolutely phenomenal and the results, you know, like he said they really do start to speak for themselves and it's it's amazing Like yes, you know, if you follow Ben online, you'll see that he's gone from 19 inch vertical to 42 inches, which is amazing Amazing, but for those of you that maybe don't care about jumping, you do these things yourself and you just, it's amazing for me to walk down the stairs in the morning and not have pain.
I'm like, I don't need to jump 42 inches. I just want to walk down the stairs and not have pain. I went to yoga the other day and I had no pain. I did a closet workout yesterday, actually, and had, and then I woke up this morning and you know, I expect the first few steps out of bed to hurt. And you're just like, dude, it doesn't hurt.
This is amazing. That's amazing. And now just imagine. As you know from doing it, like, it is, you know, a, a tough process in the sense of how much patience it takes, and, and the earlier along, like, the more you have to be really precise, and you don't have a lot of room to screw up, you know, and I would just imagine if kids grew up with just a little bit, you know, just a few You have the most important pieces, you know, imagine if when you were in college, if your team's punishment was not, you know, just endless runs, but say backward drag or something, you know what I mean?
Like, right? Like, there's like, there's some really like, easy to implement sensible stuff that if you do it on the way up, then you don't get all the deterioration and actual problems in the first place because it's, it's way harder to dig yourself out of it. And I'm, and I'm so glad that there is a way to dig out of it, and, you know, you're proof of that, and I'm proof of that, and I'm glad there is a way to dig out, but, ultimately, I'm trying to, to change things down at the beginning level, so that it's, you know what I mean, so that it's like, it is also like, you know, you're doing it, but you're extremely dedicated, and you're studying, and you're having to exhibit a lot of, you know, Focus and precision and dedication.
This, the thought of, you know, this prophylaxis, if you will, like by the time that I, because if you're going to play in college, it means you've been playing for years. It's not like you were just like one day decide like, Oh, I'm going to play college. So this means you've been beating yourself up for years.
Like if coaches could just, and, and players themselves, like just knew from, from, uh, you know, early on, by the time I graduated from high school, um, my club team, I think. Eight of us had torn our ACLs. That is absurd. Yep. Eight. And so it's like, yeah, we look at this programming, you know, you start to see the studies.
I always bitch about it and my listeners know, and I'm talking about like, you know, the studies are always the same. It's always like the same ones looking at ACLs and like, This, it's always the same, always the same. And then we're like, actually nothing is changing. If it's the same and people are still doing it, like it's not working, we need something else.
And so, you know, here comes Ben with this really nicely, uh, Uh, multifactorial, uh, and it's a, it's a nice amalgamation, I should say, because again, like I said, Ben provides the background of like where this stuff came from, and we're looking at, yeah, some of these are PT exercises, but they're high level PT exercises that were given to like the professional skiers.
Yep. And then looking at professional bodybuilders and looking at all of these different things, because success leaves clues. They say it all the time and taking the best of it. Could you talk to us a bit, Ben, about the, you know, flexibility, mobility component of things with you and your team? Yeah, I mean, so everything I've done is just driven by what I have to do to get results.
So I still get, unfortunately, high school kids DMing me every day. I'm, I'm gonna find an actual DM right now just to give you an idea of like how, like unfortunate and messed up this is. Um, cause like there was one literally an hour ago that uh, that someone sent me. This is desperate. So he says, Don't you think the range of motion training you do for yourself would be bad for a basketball player?
Couldn't it lead to hypermobility and torn ligaments? So, this kid is 16 years old and I can tell by his 411 followers that he probably does not have college scholarships And it's you know what? I mean? He's obviously he's obviously looking for answers. I'm a trainer You know what? I mean? Most kids when they're 16 are just playing video games and stuff So he's he's clearly looking for answers the fact he even knows what I mean, I don't even know what hypermobility He's like, you know Asking about range of motion and hypermobility and torn ligaments.
The thing is, when you try to go to adapt your body from what it is naturally, um, you know, it was designed a certain way. So if you try to fix it with only one muscle and not hitting the other ones, or obviously a horrible example would be like training one side of your body, but that's exactly what baseball players do.
Most basketball players, when they jump off one leg, not the other, Well, then when it comes to actually like training in the weight room, you know, you're actually going to cause muscle breakdown and potentially grow muscle. And it's just the way it works out that when you do this through a fuller range of motion, then the muscle grows in a way that can protect the joint and that you're healthy throughout the range.
So one of my mentors would say, you've gained strength in the range that you train. And so if you're only training in a particular range, whether it be. only if you sit back on a squat, that doesn't mean it's a bad movement, but it just means if you spend years doing only that, well, then what happens when your knee goes over your toe?
But the same thing can be said. I try to, I try to start building with my knee program. It's, I try to start building the ability of the knees, but, but ultimately long term, I want people to be able to do even fuller range of motion like exercises like the sort of ask the grass version. of split squat, which is my, which is I consider more of a longterm bullet proofer, but it's just by the results of it.
When people improve in that, they end up not getting hurt and, you know, in their groin, their hip flexors, their knees. So when you, when you tend to do a strengthening through a full range of motion, I find that to give them the best overall result of not getting hurt and potentiating athletic performance.
Um, plenty of studies can show, you know, how to increase sports performance, but most of these are like six or 12 week studies and you don't improve your, your vertical, you know, four inches. Plenty of studies can improve someone's vertical four inches in 12 weeks, but do that for four straight years.
You're not going to add 64 inches to your vertical jump. So it's like there's a big difference between what's going to create a short term gain, and what's actually going to like. And I find that, I find that not getting hurt is like the number one foundation of improving. So when the, when the, when the slow kid who, you know, eats Cheetos for breakfast comes in, Aaron, it's like you got to make them run faster in two weeks for this event.
Uh, no, you know, it's like, that's not how it works. And even if you could get a little bit faster in two weeks, You know, the people going for their short term gains tend to be in those cycles of injuries, which then prevents it. But if you're never getting hurt, it is so easy to improve your speed and jumping and get better at your sport.
Um, and again, it's just someone like you could answer it much better than me. But I can at least tell you that from doing this with so many hundreds of people, I observed that the more strength through length a person has, the less I see them get injured. the more steadily I see their athleticism improved.
So hopefully that can answer that. That answers the majority of your question about, you know, when it comes to mobility and flexibility. Now, when someone is doing strength training, I find that's actually a time that you can, uh, add in extra, you know, even static stretching and stuff because you're really just improving your range to then do those lips.
So I find if a guy only did static stretching, I find that the body. is still not protected and it may be tense back up because it can't trust those ranges. If it goes into that, if you're, if you're going to be strengthening through full ranges, then getting more flexibility just allows you to deeper strength training.
And there's plenty of examples. Um, My story is pretty cool because like I can do a dunk and then drop down into a splits. Yes. I love that video. My favorite one. Plenty of other ones like Dimitri Klokov who I've trained with and he can do a fricking 400 pounds snatch and drop into a splits, you know, like, right.
So, um, yeah. So to me it's just unfortunate again that like there's literally kids in high school who can't touch their toes and are on that fast track to surgeries. Who are scared to get flexible and it's just taken out of context and we got a lot of work to do. We do. And I think, you know, I think that's your messaging and your, your programming is coming.
I mean, you've been doing it forever, so it's not that it's coming at a good time, but I'm watching it and it's, I've been exposed to it at such a good time because people are finally understanding this, that like, that mobility and strength go hand in hand and that you don't gain resilience by limiting range of motion.
You gain resilience by owning the entirety of your range of motion. And like you said, the best time to actually work on your mobility is when you're doing strength training, because now you've told the nervous system, Hey, I'm actually going to get strong in this new range. So you can trust it. You can trust me.
You can, you can keep this, you can remember this. And so seeing a program like yours that again, harps on it and. And incorporates it. And just, it's such a staple within the programming. Like when I remember when I first opened the app and was like looking at the very, like, love, I had to start obviously at level one at the beginning.
And so much of it is just simple mobility work. And that you'll see for most people, I'm sure you've, you've counted it. A lot of people will be kind of frustrated and like, oh, this is all I'm doing. And it's like, yeah, we have to start with this. We have to have access to a range before we can train that range.
And then we can get, you know, insanely superhuman, strong, You know, in that range, but this is what we're seeing in general in the movement world. There's definitely a trend finally towards that, um, and that we have to own the entirety of our range. What I love that you're doing is again, bringing the pendulum back to center and saying, Hey, we have to have dedicated mobility work because I've seen the pendulum.
Now it's going too far. And people are like, Static stretching does nothing. And it's like, that is not science. That's not true. It definitely helps. It shouldn't be the only thing that we're doing. So it's, your programming is just, is so comprehensive and it's like you do it. And you're just like, yes, this makes total sense.
You actually did a really good video, Ben, at one point that was showing you, you did like a slow mo that showed where your knees end up just in general in a basketball It makes sense. You're like, dude, if you're going to go into this at full speed in a basketball game with, you know, competition, dealing with outside, um, forces acting on you, other people, you better be training that shit in the gym.
And we don't think about that. I love that. You just said like, staying healthy, not getting injured is the best way to improve. And I'm like, it's so simplistic. And, but yes, that is everything. Like. How do we not get injured? How do we, so we can keep putting force through and I'm actually looking through right now as you're talking, I'm looking through, uh, my emails to try and find like the very first email that I received from you, Ben sends out these amazing emails, um, when you've joined the program and they're really comprehensive and I, I appreciate a long email and it was, Oh, that's awesome.
I love people who actually like to read it. It's a lot. It's a lot to take in. They're so, they're just jam packed with information and it's in a digestible way and also in such a common sense way. And you're just like, yeah, this was that first email that I got Ben was, I looked at myself and I was like, this man is speaking to my soul and telling me like, Stop doing the shit that hurts you and start training, you know, regress however you need so that you can get back and actually exceed, excel at the things that you want to be doing.
Cause we all trying to like, ah, you know, I want to get better at CrossFit or whatever. I want to, whatever within this sport. But like, you can't actually put force through your joints because it hurts too much. So how are you ever going to get better at it? Yeah. It's common sense. Yeah. And most of the, you know, most of the studies and like where most of the tension has been is on.
Like, how do you improve force? But like, I don't know if I've ever started working with an athlete who could actually handle their own force, meaning. like say I want to improve like an athlete's trying to dunk, right? Well in basketball you're like running up to the rim to jump. I don't know if I've ever started with an athlete who's tibialis, uh, flexor hallucis longus, soleus gastroc, VMO, could actually take the power built up by the hips and then turn it fully upward.
Meaning like what they think they need to jump higher is just to improve it. glutes, et cetera, which are proven to put out the most force by doing that. Oftentimes they jump even less high because they're actually like then not able to handle it even more so. And then they wonder why they have shin splint and chronic knee pain.
But then that doesn't mean that all I do is, is dinky ankle and knee work for one thing. And this is where like, like my passion really, like, really shines. lies in the fact, as you mentioned, the, how the exercises progress or regress. So rather than just taking a movement and saying, Oh, you can't do that, then just don't do it at all and replace it with something else.
It's taking what level of that can you do? But then for me, I am having 40 inch jumps. So how do I take that quality and then keep going with it? So you're right. Like there's, I use a lot of PT. Qualities, but then I actually turn PT qualities into like. Max effort strength training. Yes. So yes, performance is exactly like, Oh, you're good enough to get back on the field.
Well, let's stop working your ability to protect your body and just go right back into destroying it and I'll see you pretty soon. So exactly. That's exactly it. That's our model. I'm not sure if people realize that, but as PTs, like, you, the person that's coming to see you got hurt at the level of capacity that they were at before.
Like, my goal as a PT should not be to like, let me get you back to where you were before. Like, no, cause you got injured there. I need to make you, help you, or at least guide you to be better than you were before. Yeah. Ben, you started talking about it and I'd love if you could Talk about a little bit more because this is something that like really honestly blew my mind and I was like, fuck, I never thought about this.
Hips versus lower extremity strength. Like we are just conditioned like hips, hips, hips, hips, hips, glutes, glutes, glutes. And you're really the first one that to, to point out and show me like, can your lower extremity actually handle what your hips already have? Can you talk about that? Yeah. And man, has it taken me like a while myself to come to grips with like how much volume and intent have you put into traditional.
Deadlifts, squats, Olympic lifts versus tibialis raises. But then, but then when you, when a basketball player goes to run into a jump, exactly what happens is the hips extend to start building up the running speed and then the toe flexes up and all the force slams through your heel and so that you can then take that force and go upward.
So, so it's really. It's really tough to, and that's why like it took me a while to come around to these things. And even as I started to get like my knees healthier, I still had horrible shin splints and I would wake up in the morning and like my heels, it was really like a, like plantar fasciitis. Some days it was in my, my big toes arches, but my heels were so tender.
I'd practically limp to the bathroom every morning when I would wake up. Um, and. I thought that it was just genetic because my dad has that problem and um, I actually helped my dad fix that by having him take long walks in the sand. You know, he doesn't have the, he doesn't put the stress on his feet that I do with jumping.
But now when I tell you that like my feet never, ever, ever, ever hurt. And I, and just a couple of years ago, I didn't think this was possible. So even when I started figuring out some of the stuff for the knees, I mean, it was really a lot to take in, like, okay, my hip can actually hurt my knee. And then to be like, well, Jesus, my knee can even hurt my feet and ankles.
So it's tough to look at one's training history and really confront, like, how much you've done for the lower leg. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish, I wish I had better ways to test it for the knees. It's a lot simpler. I like when I can get things down to like simple math at the moment. I really just have to tell people like, look, train your tibialis.
You really can't get it like too strong. Like if you're training it, you're already doing better than your competition. You know what I mean? And so like ATG athletes, we really don't, we're like, um, like if we didn't know any better, like guys that I've trained, like they don't even realize that other people get like foot pain.
Like they don't even know what, yeah, but we do. Fricking, that's amazing. So many staff and al raises and it's like, it may not be sexy, but it's there and like we ignore it and do 10 sets on our, it works on our big muscles. And then think that like three sets where we're like. Literally like texting or talking to our friends and like, I, like, I wondered like, like, why do my calves not grow?
Like what did I do to deserve this? Well, maybe it's like the 30 sets on a chest workout and then reset like every third week on calves. Like that doesn't mean you're training calves just because you do. You know what I mean? So it's, it's really because it's like you have to look at it and you have to admit it.
Bye. Holy shit. I've gotten this out of balance. You know what I mean? Like, now, like, I can, I can tell you, you know, straight up, like, with my programming now, when I train an athlete, for every set that I'm making your leg stronger, you're doing a set of calf and tibialis raises. Like, that is my programming.
There is no programming like that on earth, where for every set of tibialis. Squats are supersetted with tibialis raises. In my advanced programming so that you cannot avoid it. So I don't even wait until the end of the workout to do it as accessory. Right. I actually super set the big lifts with calf or tibialis raises.
So it cannot be avoided. And you know, it's, it's not sexy, but for basketball players, it was easy. It was easier for me to find it out because when you're, when you grow up like a, I mean, I went into high school at 92 pounds. Bye. Oh my gosh, Ben. Yeah, like I was so skinny. And when you, when you're like a skinny basketball guy, you're never really going to impress someone like with your powerlifting or Olympic lifting ever.
When you're like, when you have like a tall skinny body type, right? So for me, what is sexy is like jumping, dunking, like for basketball, dunking is our bench press, right? So it's just, yes, it was much easier for me to be, to be able to do some of these things. where it was, it would be very hard. It takes more time for me to convince someone who squats, you know, 400 plus pounds to superset their squats with tibialis braces.
Yet they have like horrible shin splints and they wonder why they're spending so much money on the latest recovery, all recovery, recovery, recovery, recovery. What about the fricking training in the first place? And they, and like, like, I've seen guys like that, they're like, Oh, I figured it out, you know, and like, I got to do this, and then like a week later, like, Oh, that didn't work, you know, it's like, yeah, it's never going to work, you've never done, you've never tried to get your lower leg stronger, but you keep driving up your squat deadlift.
It's you speaking to my soul, man. I, it's funny because on social media, I do so many like stories about my calves. Cause like, I've never had calves. And I like, you said it then, what have I done to like deserve these, these skinny legs and I'm always posting about it. And then I, lo and behold, I started your programming and reading your stuff.
And I was just like, dude, the answer has been part of the answer. At least probably a large part of the answer for my knee pain has been staring me in. And I talk about it every day and never address it. Like you just said everything. Like, I'm like, why are my calves so skinny? Oh, also I only ever do calf raises once a year and I do 10 and that's it.
But then we wonder like, Oh, can't possibly be contributing to my knee pain. And yet we also know that everything is connected. So it was such a smack in the face and a good one. And especially for squats, because the calves actually act as a cushion. So baseball players know, like catchers know, they actually, they actually buy these socks that have padding.
Where the calf is, and they're called knee buddies because they keep your knees healthier. Well, I didn't have any knee buddies when I started squatting. Yeah, but yeah, same thing for me. It was like, I don't understand how this could be. I did a calf raise one time. I did one. Why didn't it work? Why am I being punished?
I did one. It's so like, you know, and I was looking at positionings and you guys listening, this is a, I'm working on a post about this because I, you guys know, I'm all about the nervous system and kind of, kind of figure out the why behind things. And, uh, this woman, Chris, Chris Rufalo, Chris Rufalus, I don't know.
I'll link her in the show notes. She did a post about how, when she, pressed on her calf, her knee flexion changed. And she's a hypermobile person to start off with. I know for me personally, I don't know the last time that my hamstrings touched my calf, like maybe when I was a baby and since then they don't do it.
And so I was working on this and thinking, cause we, we talk about doing joint mobilizations, you know, Kelly Starrett's mobilizations like that. And a large part of the way that these joint mobilizations are likely working is that they're improving your. Your brain's understanding of where it is in space.
You're pushing on your skin, you're pushing on muscle spindles, things like that, and your brain has a better understanding of where things are. So if we can start training these muscles and actually just simply increasing the size of them. Yeah. When we start squatting and doing things, things can be better simply because of our improved awareness of where we are in space.
Like for me, the thought of skidding into. A catcher's position. I'm like, my knees are going to explode off my body. And it's like, not a thing. But if I put my hand, even just using my hand, like a knee saver, a knee buddy behind my knee, it feels better. I have done nothing physiologically to open up that joint.
Like a little fricking sock behind your knee is not opening up your joint, but it is telling your brain where you are in space. We're getting some approximation of tissues and things like that. And so Ben puts out this programming and I'm just like, Dude, you've had the answer here, and you've been bitching about your calves, and that's actually going to be one of the biggest solutions to things, and then I love that you bring in tibialis, because I know for me, whenever I go for a run, my tibialis anterior is so sore.
Oh wow. Every. Single. Time. Like, my whole life, it's been like that. Like, if I'm running, I'm like, oh my god, it's so sore. And we don't And I've found huge links between knee pain and tibialis. Huge. Yeah. I actually wrote to, to you and the coaches, um, the other day, I don't know, yesterday, two days ago when I was doing, going through the knee program, cause I, I've just progressed to doing Patrick step ups, finally.
Um, and I feel them in my tibialis anterior, like I don't, I feel polyquins in my knee, like in a good way, but the tibia anterior, the, excuse me, the Patrick step ups, I'm like. Usually what stops me is that my tib anterior is so tired, I have to rest so I can finish this set of 20 and you guys were like, uh, yeah, do, do some more tib braces and put some weight on there.
Like, oh, these are things that we know, but we don't, it's just like, you need someone to come and say it and do it. And then you feel it for yourself and you've, you wake up in the morning, you don't have knee pain and you're like, shit, this works. And since we're going into the. to the details. Then one of those huge little bonus ones I figured out because like, I thought I was training my hamstrings really hard, but there's a couple, there's a couple of things about it that always prevented me from really making a change on my hamstrings.
And just like you were talking about with the calves, like if you super improve your hamstring, it's especially at that lower connection behind the knee. Again, it's acting as like a knee buddy. It's it's co contracting to stabilize needs. It's huge. And there's actually people who have been like, yeah, the knee exercise are going well, but it's actually the.
When I do Nordics, my knees feel amazing, you know? So the thing about the Nordic, the way I teach it is, yeah, like we basically like cheat our ass on the way up, almost like an Olympic lift, because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get athletes to challenge themselves as much as possible on the way down because the hamstring compared to most muscles are so much stronger eccentrically that you could.
you could do like girls every day of your life on the machine and not actually challenge your hamstrings enough to get them to change a lot. And so when you, when you start doing Nordics, you realize that on the way down, it's like, Oh shit, you know, that's super hard. If you improve that, you feel it right behind your knee.
And that's really the area because from deadlifts and even a lot of people do good Romanian deadlifts and you know, it's not like, yeah. I wouldn't say there's like an epidemic of people not training their hamstrings, but I would say, even if you look at the hamstring, that's a really long muscle and the amount of attention on the upper and mid hamstring to the lower hamstring.
I don't think there's enough training going on for the lower hamstring, especially for people who have had knee issues because like naturally, like, Naturally we avoid that shit. For example, that's what I find with the tibialis, right? So since the tibialis is like that first muscle right up under your knee, and as I, as I say, which maybe can be proven or disproven, but I say that the tibialis is the first line of defense against knee pain.
Cause if you look at like a jumper go to take off and they lift those toes up and all that force through the heel, well, like the stronger that tibialis, less pressure is coming up through the knee in the first place. But man, I find that guys who have had long term knee problems have the weakest tibialis because when they play their sport, they stop going for those really hard decelerations.
They baby, right? They baby the decelerations, they actually baby the tibialis and it doesn't get enough, like enough hard work. So I have to, I have to start those guys. Much much easier when they start to be Alex work a lot of the exercises that we're talking about guys You should be thinking of my PTs.
You should be like, yeah We did this, like, this exists in the PT world, but then like Ben said, how do you bring this into the performance world? And are you just using this, okay, this person got an injury, like, they're post op ACL, and we're going to do some step downs. Because those are the same step downs, but do you stop there?
Do you load this? What are we looking at in terms of, uh, time under tension? Like, are we actually paying attention to, to how this person is doing this? Are we allowing people to do this step down with a very hip dominant pattern? Ben talks about this extensively in the videos and such, and keeping your ass in front of your heel so that we're actually putting the strain through the, you know, appropriate hip.
Nordics, Nordics are huge in the PT world, but only in the context of hamstring injuries and runners. We never hear them talked about any other time, literally just if you like, once you've already fucked your shit up, then you should do some Nordics. That's it. Right. So like to have this in a program, you know, ideally, cause Ben has other programs, not just the knee ability program, but have this in your programming, just in general to.
Make yourself more resilient, more robust. And here's the reason why we are doing it. And yes, these are things that, you know, everyone, every athlete especially should be able to do because you'll have people try to do it. We sometimes we program them in CrossFit and you're just like, nobody. And yet we are, uh, you know, doing all these other super high level activities.
And I'm not saying that means you should stop the other high level activities, but we probably also shouldn't be surprised if we get injured doing some of these other things that put us in these positions that, you know, a Nordic is showing us that you're actually not so prepared for because you can't do this.
So it's amazing to see in the programming. Yeah. And, and again, it's just a result of actual experience. And like, for me. When I originally set out on my goal, I actually was trying to jump higher. I was like, I had hit that rock bottom point where I was like, I'll just do anything and everything to figure out how to play the sport I love.
Like I didn't even, I mean, of course, secretly I still had goals, but like, even I knew it was unrealistic as many years that I had been out of high school with no college interest, you know, I knew it was like completely unrealistic to think that I would get to play in college or, or beyond. Um, and then it was just like, My jumping kept, you know, the, the harder I worked to get my knees healthy and like the more I prioritized my health through active rather than just resting.
So the more I prioritize my health with this active, uh, you know, bullet proofing approach, then the more athletic I get. So I mean it's crazy how high I can jump now and how I can play basketball because I never set out for that. So I think the trick is, is making, um, The trick is making the, you know, the physical therapy side of things sexy.
And that's what's, that's what's hard. And, and I mean, I try all kinds of ways to do it. And the main one is dunking. But even jokingly, like when I train high school kids, I always tell them when it comes to Cibialis training, that chicks dig big tits. That may be politically incorrect. That may be stupid and childish, but it's like on some level, It at least connects with them and gets them to acknowledge, like, I know this is boring, but I say, like, this is going to make you jump higher.
This is going to make you healthy. You're going to be the guy on the court, you know? Exactly. So. And that's sexy. Yeah. So there, we have to, you know, keep figuring out ways for that. And it's like you said, I think, I think physical. Therapy has a lot of the answers, but it just can't be, it has to be a lifestyle and it has to become part of the programming itself, not just exactly do when you're hurt.
So like you said, step down, like I can tell you for a fact, like if a basketball player cannot stand on a six inch box, put their body weight on their back to do, you know, step down with, with perfect form, which for us is actually pretty tough. Um, perfect form means a lot, you know, when I coach that exercise, but like, It's absurd.
Like most people are like, wow, I've only tried that with body weight. It's like, well, then you're only going to be protected to a certain degree. And body weight may be fine for a lot of situations, but not if you're going to go and try to dump. Absolutely. This is, this is what we should be looking at. And we see a lot of PTs and people that listen to this podcast that are looking to bridge that gap and whether you're a trainer, PT, whatever, understanding that, like, this is how things need to be going forward.
And, uh, this is how you're going to get the best results. This is how you're going to, you know, from a, you know, a business perspective, how you're going to have a booming business is get fricking good people results, like know why you're doing the things you're doing. Explain why you're doing the things you're doing and then do stuff that gets results.
Ben's stuff gets results. That's why I brought him on. You know, I, I wanted to go through it first. Um, and I definitely felt the difference of starting from the beginning and again, kind of time, you know, looping back to what you said before, by really listening to the message that he was delivering, um, Ben, Ben Keegan, they lived lives, um, that really resonate with me in terms of like being pretty extreme with things when they're like, I'm in, I'm all in, I'm going to go and do this.
And that was a big thing that, um, I think has helped in terms of fast tracking how, uh, my results, I would say, mainly because I stopped doing the other stuff, like, it's not that I'm going to stop doing it forever, but I realized, and it was really that, that first email you sent where. You know, you're working hard at staying the same.
And I'm like, I want to stop being that person working hard at staying the same. Like, let me take out the stuff that, that has been hurting me, that stuff that I hasn't been showing gains. And let me just do this. Let me run a true experiment. Just one variable I'm adding in the programming and the results speak for themselves.
If folks are interested. Ben in, um, ATG stuff. We actually, we didn't even talk about ATG. So you can talk, talk about ATG. If the folks are interested in this programming, where can they go? What can they expect? Fill us in. Okay. I think it's a really cool, um, opportunity for PTs. I think it'd be a good investment for PTs, even if it was just for a month.
My mom does all the customer service and like we, you know, we have certain purposes. So. Even if someone just wants to do a month and learn a bunch, we think that's fantastic. Like we're trying to wait, raise awareness. And I'll be honest, like business is good. Um, beyond, you know, even what I expected going into this business in terms of the money, that's why I haven't raised prices and stuff like that.
I haven't needed to, I try to just keep pouring more value into it. So it's, it's not like a thing where you're just going to get sent the program. Like, as you said, like, My articles, my theoretical data behind it, it's actually like, better for a trainer or a PT than an athlete because athletes want their hands, like athletes tend to not even want to know why, and just do it.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just do it, it'll be better. So, the people who tend to enjoy the experience the most, we get tons of great results. Um, Really cool. We get tons of great results, but I will say that people who do tend to enjoy it the most are the people who are most interested in the subject itself, because I like to share all the knowledge behind it.
And because of that, I think that like for PTs and stuff, I think it could create, um, a huge wave and I think it'd be really good for business. Cause in my mind, what I see it doing is. Yes, it could shake things up a little bit, and that wouldn't be good for everyone's pockets. But to be honest, the only pockets I see it hurting are the people pushing drugs and surgery.
And I'm not saying that drugs and surgery don't have their time and place, but I think the pockets that it would be hurting in terms of drug and surgery are probably the least ethical pockets of them all. So, as a PT, rather than just getting someone, pain free if you had an arsenal to take them from pain free to bulletproof, I think maybe more people would be investing in their bodies before getting hurt and thinking about their body as, you know, you get one.
So it's like, um, it's kind of like this. If you prevent the injuries in the first place and you invest in doing that, God, you're saving so much more money than you realize because it's the blow ups that really fucking ruin your life. Everything from the cost of the blobs themselves in terms of potential surgeries and drugs and whatnot.
But then what effects do you think then it has when you end up hooked on painkillers or out of work or like, like the ramifications, what kind of character, like I was a dick when I had surgery because I was so upset and depressed and had no friends and like the emotional damages, the damage to your life, you know, versus the quality of not having the pain.
Being able to play with your kids or in my case, being able to play with my sport, which is the only thing I knew. And the only thing that, you know, like without that took something out of my life that it took my pride away. It took my self confidence away. It took my, you know, I just had a gloomier outlook on life.
So I think it could be awesome for PTs to start building their repertoire for every of the injuries that they're treating in terms of actually continuing to see their clients. maybe not every day, but continuing to see them and actually, you know, building up longterm clients who understand that going to the gym is not the end investment of your body, you know, and, and that actually.
Physical therapy shouldn't be something they just do after getting hurt. And this is the way that we've seen the model going like that old school, two times a week for two to three times a week for six, eight weeks. That that's out the window, at least with my listeners out the window, we're really in that cash based model where people are seeing someone once every two weeks, something like that.
There's a lot more like remote kind of telehealth stuff going on. And this is a perfect example, perfect, um, you know, information for how you can be. Bridging that gap and getting people past that because we also know if even if you are a therapist that does take insurance, you know Insurance will cut them off before they're able to get slowly better.
This is it doesn't work that way It takes time But now you have some a way that you can help people past these things and even if you don't you know Do the exact same thing. It's just a nice way another way to think flipside if you are a Patient listening to this or you are that doesn't matter your PT or provider with knee pain And he does have other programs you guys by the way You Um, I just did the knee ability program.
Um, and you can switch between programs and such. Everything is through an app. They're super responsive. You message them through the app. You send your videos in of how you're doing the exercises, and then they give you feedback. Anytime that you send it in, and you can only progress to the next level of things when you demonstrate competency in this movement.
You have to hit certain standards so that you can go to the next level. It's not like, oh, willy nilly, it's going to do anything. So it really is the best way, in my humble opinion, to do, you know, remote programming. Um, cause like Ben said, it's not just like a template that you get and you're on your own, like, good luck, don't die.
Um, there's a specific steps and such that you go through, um, with this. If the people want to find this, find you, find this, follow this on social media and just like in terms of, uh, the internet, the into webs. How can they do that, Ben? Um, well our website is atg online coaching.com, so you can put a, I will write that for you guys.
Yep, that's our link. And then my Instagram is knees over toes guy. teammates that I work with on this one of them is 41 and he looks like he's 21 and He performs like he's 21 and got himself back to dunking, which he hadn't done in years. And I love having him on the team. He's called at Mr. Infinity, but every I and infinity is a, is the letter one.
There's a number one. Yeah, I'll get that in there for you guys. Yeah. He's, uh, he's 41. You didn't know that? That's why he's called Mr. No! Black don't crack. That is amazing, man. He's 41. Yeah, he's 41. So, but it's, I consider that crucial because I'm 28 and, like, we really vet everything out through him to make sure that it's like, that it really is gonna be adding up.
Yeah. And then the third guy we work with, um, It's at the flexible because he is a bull like he's so strong and yoke, but yet he's so flexible I can do this with me and he makes me look like when I stretch with him. I feel like a tight piece of shit. So, yeah, because I'm a basketball player, like, and the thing is, I love movement in so many ways and I would love to be able to pursue so many different things.
But my sport is basketball. Yeah. I would love to just try to get yoked and show that like, yes, you don't have to look like you only do yoga to be flexible. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Yes. The three of us together, like we really vibe off each other and we really work well together and it gives a well rounded feel.
And even when you train with us online, you have all of our numbers. Um, I even brought in a fourth guy cause I have so many basketball players who even breaks down our guys. Yeah. He's. It's unreal how high you can jump. And so, so we try to give a really well rounded, uh, coaching team, not of guys who learned from encyclopedias, but of guys who can do it and who can prove it through their own bodies.
And we like, we live it. So we enjoy trying to push things forward every week, new content, improving things. Um, so it's, it's definitely a fun thing to be a part of. Everyone has different budgets. So like I said, if someone just wanted to do a month, I mean, I had someone messaged me today and say they learned more, they signed up like a week ago and they said they've learned more usable data than they did getting a master's degree.
Now that's his word, not mine. But so even if someone just wanted to do a month, right, like I, we have all this data on our site. So once you sign up, you can start learning. But depending on people's budgets, I try to keep it at a rate that someone could afford to stay with us and to keep having fun programming work from and keep progressing and stay in tune with any, you know, new things we figure out.
And, and we have had a lot of like, you know, coaches themselves who have been able to actually like improve, you know, their own businesses. Um, By using a lot of this stuff and by staying up to date with the best ways to help their clients. Works, man. This stuff works. If you guys out there, especially cause I speak from experience, that's when I choose to, or rather that's my favorite place to promote stuff from, uh, from experience.
But if you guys out there are struggling with knee stuff, if you've had knee issues, you've been trying a bunch of stuff and it's not getting better. This is one of the reasons I brought Ben on. Like I don't like just bitching about things and not providing solutions. And I truly feel that this is a solution.
Uh, for me, I know it is a solution. I cannot speak for you, but it is something that I really, really recommend that you look into. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, the results speak for themselves. He's been in this position. I actually just pulled up that post you did with your MRI. My dude had a meniscectomy on the left knee.
He had an open superior lateral excision. So from that, this is only part of the little screenshot there, but from that I'm getting that he had a, like a lateral release, which is like what we see old school done to like when people had knee pain. They're like, well, they're just going to cut these things.
He had a quad tendon repair. Like this dude, I didn't even know I had that. And I, I have some, I have, I also have like some material in my kneecap, but like, I don't know, I don't even remember what it is. Like I was so out of it. Like they would ask me, like, like they'd be saying stuff, like I don't even want to know.
Yeah. Just do it. Just do it and if it's going to help my pain feel better. Please just do this thing. He's been there. And one of the things that resonates the most with me when I watch your account, um, and your, your, your best way, especially your basketball drills is how hard you play. Like, and then you did a post about that talking about like, people don't want to play against you.
And it's not like he's like being a dirty player. Like my dude just goes hard because he's able to, his body doesn't hurt. His body's not saying stop, don't do this. Or like, I shouldn't do this. Cause I might get hurt. My dude, imagine you guys from that performance standpoint. You know, the cliche quote, like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?
Like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't get injured? How hard would you go in the thing that you want to do? Whether it's running, soccer, CrossFit, whatever, right? Cause you can't be performing when you're defending. Imagine if you could just do that. I see players all the time, and I see their coaches yelling at them, wanting them to play harder, but I can tell the difference between a guy who's lazy, more often than not, I can see in the player's gait, like, that is how he can That's it.
That's it. That's what he's got to give, you know what I mean? Like, he is trying his best, and that's what he's got. Um, I did want to say, so I'm not the most technologically advanced, but I'm coming up in the world, and I will go right to my, um I'm meeting with the guy who makes my website and stuff tomorrow so I can see about how I get like a code so your people can get a discount because I don't know how to do that, but I know that they know how to do that.
All right, guys. So Ben got me that code. Get ready to write it down, put in your notes, whatever. It's going to be a T G 15, right? A T G. And then the number 15, right? One five. That's actually going to save you 30 percent off of your first. Month's membership fee, 30%. And this is Ben's gift to you. This dude is, he really is just, he's a really good guy, really good guy.
Uh, that's Ben's cut. That's Ben's personal cut. And so he is given that to you guys for free. ATG 15 gets you 30 percent off the first month. And then it'll bump back up to regular pricing after that. Should you continue, uh, should you choose to continue with. The program. Okay, write it down. ATG 15, and back to the episode.
Like Ben said, even if it's just dip your toe and go and learn, you know, do it for a month, the stuff that you have access to My man, like, I'm excited to go to the gym now. I'm excited to go and work on this stuff. I'm, I'm like, constantly finding myself now, like, throughout the house, like, working on my mobility because it doesn't hurt me.
And I'm like, dude, what else can I do? To be 34 and and feel like. I, my knees are better and getting better than when I was 16. So that's when I, everything went downhill. I was like 15 years old and it's all downhill after that. To be like, Hey, I can go and be this athlete that I know I have in me. And I know you guys listening, you know, exactly what I'm talking about.
Where do you just like, I could do more, but I physically can't right now. Like I'm going to get hurt. And it's so frustrating because you know, you have it in you. Here's a way that perhaps you can tap into that. Like you don't have to hurt all the time. You don't have to be in pain all the time. There's, there are answers out there.
Go check it out. It's all in the show notes. H E G online coaching. com. Knees over toes guy. Check them out. Is there anything else you want to leave the people with Mr. Ben? Yes. If you are going to do it, start saving up for your next pair of shorts, because me and my wife actually have, uh, we've designed our own brand of short shorts, which is basically for every comment I get or Yeah.
People who hate on me for wearing short shorts. I love it because I don't give a shit because I used to be the guy who would intentionally buy long pants when I would go to the gym. You know what I mean? Mm hmm. So that I would hide my legs with no muscle. Do the same thing. And so if you are going to do it, get ready to see leg gains and uh, and so stop, if you're like I was, stop buying long pants to hide your legs because you're going to get some nice legs.
You are, I have some like quad definition for the first time in my life. Yay. My calves are coming along like, this man is the real deal. You guys, it's all linked in the show notes. Click it. If you can't find the show notes, cause for whatever reason, again, it's atgonlinecoaching. com or probably even better.
Check out kneesovertoesguy on Instagram and see for yourself. This is like, this is a real deal. I don't bring people on just to blow smoke or anything like that. I begged Ben and I was like, please come on, share this because. It literally is changing my life. And I want the same thing for you guys. I'm all about spreading the happiness, paying it forward.
And that's what I want. So that is why I brought Ben on and Ben has delivered my dude. Thank you so much for doing this. All of it. Thank you for the programming. Thank you for being just an amazing coach and you're for experimenting on yourself and for coming on. Thank you. You are so welcome. And I'm going to work hard for any of your people.
You know, pay it, pay it back to you, because you're doing so much for me by having me on your podcast. My pleasure. You guys listening, if you liked this episode, I'm not gonna ask for any reviews, I'm not gonna ask for any subscriptions or anything like that. If you liked this episode, I want you to head on over to Instagram and check out KneesOverToesGuy.
That's all I want you to do. Go check out his account, scroll through, listen to the posts, read the posts, check out what he is putting out there. I promise you, this stuff can change your life. Alright, that's all that we got for you guys. As always, endlessly, endlessly appreciative for you tuning in. You could've been doing anything and you chose to listen to us.
So, for that, high fives all around. Yep. Until next time, friends, Ben Patrick and Maestro, out.
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