[Transcript starts at 2:58]
Hey guys, Maestro here coming at you live with another episode of Maestro on the Mic. Today I have with me quite possibly, The most interesting woman in the world. And you, you probably haven't heard of her, which is, I'm pumped.
So we're skipping the bio. She's just going to start talking. Without further ado, welcome to the show. Kathy Sierra. How are you doing boss? Well, you know, being on the movement, maestro is on my bucket list, so I'm doing pretty well, check it off. Then we'll check it off. Kathy, you sent me some information about yourself beforehand and I've been stalking you and I've.
I am enthralled. I, I literally, I asked you this question before we hopped on, but I feel like you must be 200 years old with the amount of amazing things that you've experienced, done, just lived so far. Like, dude, thank you for coming on. I am about 200 years old. So, so I'm doing pretty well. Thank you. Got it.
So if you don't mind, cause I don't want to do this original bio thing. Could you maybe give the listeners, whatever you want to share about The 30, 000 foot view, if you want. Oh, God, that's hard. Um, well, okay. I like it. Go ahead, talk. The mic is yours. Uh, I'll start, I'll start kind of at the beginning and do the speed pass.
So, originally, you know, Bachelor of Science in Kinesiology, five years in university. Oh, I was a sponsored skateboarder during that time. I should mention that. And then, um, It was a very different time. And then, um, I was lucky enough to be living in Los Angeles at the time at, you know, sort of mid to late 80s, which was really the go peak time or so we thought of, you know, health and fitness and the fitness club and, um, And so I ended up being a director of training for some of the biggest health and fitness centers at the time in the world.
I don't even know what they're called now, because you're in LA, you might know. One was Sports Club LA, um, and Spectrum Clubs, and they had a bunch of different names, and they're massive. And, um, we had, you know, the best possible biomechanics equipment that you could have 40, 000 square foot weight room of gleaming, you know, machines, um, sports medicine physician on staff.
I mean, it just, it wasn't going to get any better than this. And I started to realize, um, we had created these people who, you know, all, well, not just my a hundred trainers, but All of the members of these clubs who were so fit and they looked incredible and fabulous and they were broken in just a hundred different ways.
Um, everyone, they were broken and, and I was so disheartened because I thought this is as good as it's going to get. We're doing the best that we can possibly do. And they're all, they're all completely broken. And so what else do I have? So I just walked away from it all, didn't even go in a gym for about 10 years.
I just couldn't do that anymore because I knew it wasn't going to get better. So I left, you know, this is now 15 years as a movement professional, and I went back to school for computer science because I thought, well, I can't hurt anyone. I'm just programming. And, but because it was L. A., of course, I got into, you know, programming.
game design and working for the studios and that was really fun and I got very much into motivation science and creating intrinsically motivating experiences and I taught that at UCLA for a while, but I was working as a programmer and then The dot com crash happened and my husband and I were both programmers.
And at this point, middle aged programmers. So we, of course, lost our jobs and knew that we wouldn't get our jobs again, probably any job. So out of desperation, I decided that Well, maybe I could write a book, so wrote a programming book, and then by OK. It surprised everyone. Um, it became just a massive bestseller.
And, uh, so then people wanted us to write a series. So we made it into a series of several programming books. And then, like I said, we went on to sell, I think about 2 million copies now, just in print. And that was really shocking. And, um, Two million. And people were, uh, this didn't actually go over real well in the sort of very high tech field, um, because, you know, programming is supposed to be this, you know, this very difficult thing to learn.
And you know, I learned it in the hard way and dammit, my readers are going to learn it the hard way. So in many ways it felt like, okay, taking candy from a baby. Bar was so low on making an experience for people to learn that was actually kind of reasonably, you know, pleasant and happy that it was actually really pretty easy.
So, um, so people wanted to know. Um, why, why are these books so successful? And so I started giving talks on that. I started saying, okay, look, you know, stop, you know, stop criticizing us. You want to know why this is successful? We'll just tell you and you can apply it to anything, to any products, to any services.
And then that turned out to be my career from that point on, because at the time I gave that talk, there happened to be a lot of. Prominent tech people in the room. Um, Even like Jeff Bezos, you know, the founder of Amazon. There were people like that. Oh, happened to be in that room because my publisher has an amazing, you know, rolodex.
So when he asks people to come, they do. And so after that I just went on a few world tours to tour. Talk about that topic, which basically was, you know, how to create badass users. And, um, and that was it. And then, you know, the tech world, I became a little bit disenchanted with the tech world too, for different reasons.
And my lifelong passion and love was always horses. And I thought, you know, it's time for me to really do where my absolute heart is. But I found myself when I was really working more, you know, full time with the horses. I'm like, Whoa, there's deja vu. I'm basically trying to do the same thing to the horses that I did to people, which was the whole reason I left that profession.
So I thought this is just, I'm going to go back and try to refresh, you know, and renew some of my old dusty, you know, movement certifications. And I, this is about three years ago. And I went back and I. Just fell way down the rabbit hole. Well, how I ended up, of course, finding you. Um, I think I first ended up on Gray Cook's, you know, the Functional Movement System site.
And then I just binge watched, you know, Gray Cook's videos. And that was the start. And my mind was just blown. And then by the time, you know, I was maybe a year into this, I'm like, everything we learned in school was wrong. Basically everything. But it was so freeing and so, exciting and so empowering to people.
You know, when I was in school, everything people did was wrong, except this tiny, narrow bandwidth in which you could move. And we carefully set up the machine so that you couldn't actually do anything but the one thing we wanted you to do. And suddenly, we were Even some of these gyms I worked in, I would see pictures online.
I'm like, where's all the machines that we spent, you know, millions of dollars on? There's like ropes. What is this? And kettleballs and those, you know, and boxes and it's, wow. And so it just turned my entire perspective around about everything, about movement, um, about myself. And most especially about the horses.
Like I, you know, I decided to try some of this on myself first when I was first learning it. And for example, I had a big skateboard injury. Um, You know 30 years ago and from that point on both my education and of course, you know, my physicians were like Well, you're never going to be able to squat past 90 degrees and you're not gonna want to and that was it And if I tried it would be like the most white hot daggers of pain.
So I spent you know a few days learning about some of the new, you know, pain science. And I thought, wow, maybe, maybe this is possible. Maybe my nervous system just doesn't know I can do it. And so let me try to do a few tricks. And suddenly within, you know, two days, I'm doing Full squats, all the time, down to the floor, back up, with zero pain.
So I went from staggering pain for 30 years to, it's like I could just feel a part of my brain going, I'm just gonna let that go, I think you can do this now. And I, that just blew my mind, so. After that, I was kind of hooked. Speaking my language, everyone out there. I'm sure you guys are chomping at the bit.
I'm going to throw that little horse, you know, reference in there, because this is incredible. You guys, just to summarize what she just said, she was originally started the kind of biomechanics training world, little side note in there. She was a pro skateboarder during that time. Cause don't we all just do that on a whim, right?
And then switched, which I want to talk about this, the courage it takes to go and do something. Then I'll switch, went into the programming world, which he took over there. teaching at UCLA, then went on to write a book and was like, yo, here's an amazing book that sold 2 million copies. Then went on to give talks about how to, how to create these bad ass users and did a world tour, including TED talks and had some really big names at these talks.
And then. Was like, hey, I still got more in me. I'm going to go and follow my lifelong passion and start working with horses. You're, you guys listening. She literally is the most interesting woman. The most interesting human. I'm not. In the world. This is, oh my God, Kathy, can you talk to me a little bit about, as I have so many things, but to start off with the courage it took.
or whatever you were feeling that allowed you to go from one world into completely different worlds each time. Like, that's not a thing people do. They just sit and suffer and are like, I guess this is my life. How did you do that? Um, okay, I'll tell you that. But I, I just have to correct one thing. I actually haven't done a TED talk.
That's the thing I haven't done. But I've, um, But I've done, you know, I did the opening keynote for South by Southwest Interactive one year and all over the place, but don't, no, no TED Talks. Um, well, I'll see who I can speak to about that. I don't know anybody, but let me see who I can speak to. I wish I could say that I was courageous to do that, but I, I think it felt like necessity.
Like when you're, when you're that unhappy, about what you're doing. And again, at that time, I thought this is as good as it's going to get in this field. I didn't realize that if I had actually hung on a few more years, the tide was starting to turn. There were already people, people like I now, you know, look to, well, for example, like Gray Cook, they were already starting to plant the seeds of what would become functional movement.
But of course, yeah, I didn't see that coming. And, uh, I just thought, well, you know, this is going to sound cliche, but okay, you only have one life. And I just, I can't, I just don't have any passion here now. It doesn't feel like the right thing. And so. I just said, you know, I didn't have that much to lose, um, cause I didn't have that much.
So I, that makes it really easy. And honestly, you know, I, I was in university at a time when, you know, I put myself through school. It, it was just, it was so much cheaper and easier to do. So I will admit that it's probably much harder for people. For example, I really listened to your message when you talked to these physical therapists and you know, you've made this big investment.
I didn't, I didn't really have that. I, I had, you know, I still had 15 years of doing this, but I just thought, you know, I better just do this now. It's, it's not going to get any better later. And then I was so happy to do it, like after I did it, after I kind of made that jump and started getting into it, um.
I just regretted that I didn't do it earlier. And that's, like I said, everything that I've done, I've always only regretted that I didn't take the big chance earlier. Over and over and over again. That is such a powerful message. Did it get So you've done a few jumps, quite a few. They kind of segwayed, but still jumps into very different things.
Did it get any easier? Or Yes and no. Um It does because with each time, I mean, this is just part of being older and having a lot of experiences. As you start learning, things are never going to stay as bleak as they might feel in that moment, right? They will get better. And also you just learn that you can refashion yourself.
You can recreate yourself. You can learn again over and over again. And, and the hardest part is that, you know, that when you make a jump, you're going to have to live with the fact that you're going to suck at this thing. for a while. And so it is hard when you've been really good at something and you just know it really well.
And it doesn't cause a lot of stress for you. You could kind of do it in your sleep, but that's also when you feel like I'm not even growing anymore. And so there's this, there's this fear, but there's also this just freedom and excitement. You get to start at the beginning, but each time you are a faster learner, um, you know, you ha you bring more wisdom to it And then you start to bring in things from your other domains to this wildly different domain and suddenly you're enriching it.
And so it's just, that's been a great experience. But I, I don't know if it, yeah, I think it does get easier. It does get easier because you know that the sucky part isn't going to last. And so you can just feel like, okay, I just got to get through this part and you know, might as well enjoy it. Cause. I'm going to suck, and that's part of it.
And, um, But the book, I mean the book, the book turned out to be this spectacular thing, and that was out of desperation. That wasn't something I, I would have jumped to. And again, I wish I had earlier, but that was because I literally, you know, was at rock bottom. There was just, I wasn't going to get work at that time.
It was the bleakest time possible for programmers and especially, you know, if you were middle aged. Oh, and a woman. It just wasn't going to happen. And so the book thing was like, My last possible option and at that time writing a book was really a strange way to make money because it's sort of like you write This book, you know, it's a traditional publishing and then you'll start getting paid for it, you know, like a year later So that's that's kind of how it worked.
Oh, yeah, it's not it's better now, but um, yeah, but then you know this amazing thing happened and And then it turned out that that's what people wanted to, to learn about, not the topic in the book, which obviously they did the programming topics, but they wanted to learn how did you, how did you think about designing that book and the experience for people that, that caused it to have this kind of success for people.
And that's basically what, you know, kind of how I jumped to the next part of my career, which was really helping people figure that out for their users. And in some ways, in some ways back with the horses, I'm just sort of doing the same thing, which is, it's not about you. It's about creating experiences for other people that basically helps them become badass.
I think almost everyone says that, but to really live that, I mean, to really, really lean into that and mean it and do everything around that, um, that just, That just changes everything. Kathy, can I ask you to tease that out a little bit? I know I always speak about this in my podcast and the whole goal with the podcast to try to show people that at the heart of things, it's about connection, connecting with other people, connecting with the person in front of you.
For my listeners that are clinicians, you know, I always just champion this above all else, first and foremost, we must connect with that person in front of us. Can you speak to that exactly what you're just saying? I will. And, but first I have to say. Even though I'm talking to you now, I'm really an introvert.
So I think that was maybe part of why I jumped to computer science is I don't really have a lot of personal one on one interaction with people. Um, especially, I mean, think about the books, right? But it was about imagining that I was imagining that I was, um, Not even teaching them, crafting an experience that, that my role, no matter what I'm doing, is to design a context in which that person, or, you know, one at a time, all of those people, can become something more that's meaningful to them.
to them every moment. I mean, I had all these post it notes up on my wall to keep me focused on that. What will this do for them? How will this help them become badass? What skills will they now have? What superpowers am I giving them? And, and I just went, I went all in and I said, what would that look like if I created a book like that?
Because, well, the first thing I did is I asked my publisher, so what will it take to actually make any money writing a programming book? And he said, well, you, you can make money if you become the first or second book in that category. And so I'm like on Amazon, you know, and there's, there's. 2000 books on that topic.
So I'm like, and no one had really heard of me in that world. So I didn't have any of that part going for me, but, but I had been, uh, very active on forums, helping people, including a forum I created for a long time. And I just said, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start over. I'm gonna, I'm gonna not look at any of the things that any other people do who write these books.
I'm gonna just throw out all of the quote unquote rules and say, What if I could create an experience for people even though it's a, you know, two dimensional flat book? And so I think the answer is to ask completely different questions than what other you know creators were asking and The biggest one was that shift from I want them to think I'm smart And I'm good at this, too.
That doesn't matter. I want them to feel and actually become smarter and better. And what would it look like? And. And it probably changed, you know, 70 percent of what I did in the book versus what I would have done if I had taken a more, how can I create a good book? And so there are lots of like great books and you know, it's like that book should just be in a museum for that topic, right?
It's fabulous, but it didn't, I want to make fabulous readers, not, I don't care what they say about the book. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, you guys, that is directly applicable to treatment where it's not, and we see it so much. You know, my world is social media and I see so many, so many clinicians and so many practitioners on social media where the posts are simply, or seemingly, look how smart I am.
Look how smart I am. It's not about creating an experience for the, for the, the reader, about making the reader smarter, you know, and leaving them with that. It's so much of it as, Hey, look at me, look at me. And like, this is, this is, it's hard. It's hard. Not to go down that road. I mean, yeah, it's really hard.
And especially, you know, like I was interacting with the tech world when everyone was first creating big apps and all sorts of things. And I would say to them over and over again, it's not about your product. You can make the best product. But what does that even mean? It's they just they don't really care about you.
So if you can help them, that's what matters. And especially because, you know, none of us had any money to market anything at the time. Um, and so we knew that If you're dependent on word of mouth, then you can't just have something people want to talk about, you know, so people would talk about word of mouth and we said, No, what really is going to matter is word of obvious.
I want other people in their life to just know that something's changed for them, so that they don't even have to talk about it. So I want someone to come up to them and say, Wow, how, when did you get so good at that? That's the conversation that I want. And yeah. Wow, Kathy, you just blew my mind. Word of obvious.
Woo. Word of obvious. Can you talk more about that? Word of obvious. Just unpack that a little bit. Or just restate exactly what you just said about that, what you're, what you're wanting from. You know, the person that's, that's having that, that, uh, transformation, if you will. Well, cause even I think word of mouth was still being thought of as, especially in the, this was the early sort of social media marketing days.
And it was still very focused on, it's about us, it's about us, it's about us. They're going to talk about us, right? Like what do you have to say about me or my awesome product? And I thought, well, that's, that's not what matters. I want them to be talking in first person language about me. themselves. And I want them to also just not have to talk about us at all, but simply be better in a noticeable way so that other people in their life will see them and experience it.
And it will just simply be obvious. And then best case, someone comes and asks them, What changed? How did you get good at this? When did you learn this? How, you know, Wow. And that's the conversation. And if you create experiences for people with that end conversation in mind, then you've got something special.
So can I tell you a little story about Gary Vaynerchuk? Please talk. You know who Gary Vaynerchuk is? Yes. Yes. Gary V. Yes. Okay. So yeah, Gary V. So, so a long, long time ago, um, I, I, I did, like I said, I used to do a lot of talks at. South by Southwest. So one year I had the opening keynote. And so I thought I'd heard some little things about Gary.
And so I went to his website and I went to places where people were, and again, this is a very long time ago, and where people were talking, you know, about, so I thought that they would be talking about Gary. But when I looked through his comments, I noticed that people were talking about themselves. This was when he had, you know, Wine Library.
And he was making people smarter at their next dinner party in a way that was really accessible. But I saw all this first person language, and hardly anyone was talking about Gary V. They were talking about themselves. And I thought, well, this This is magic. This is amazing. Look at what he's created for people.
And so, so I, I brought him up on stage and talked about all this. And then he and I spent the next 10 years, you know, arguing over it because I kept saying, well, I know why you're successful. And he'd say, because I'm so good looking. It was like, no, because first person language. And same thing when we talked to authors, you know, we did a little experiment with, with our books.
We tried to say, can we find a metric in our Amazon reviews that could maybe reveal something about why our books are successful relative to the next closest bestsellers? And we looked only at five star reviews and we guessed that the content of their reviews would have more emotional language. And more first person language that they would be talking about themselves.
And if they're not, if they're talking about us, then we feel like we failed. Like, so, you know, that's part of why I told you this is, I'm, I'm not interested in bios because this is totally new. This doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. This is totally, totally new. Totally incredible. Like this is, I posted a quote not too long ago and I got a tattoo of it because it resonated so much.
And this is it right here. You know, the quote from Buckminster Fuller, you never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. And you just like dropped the mic on me there. That's incredible. But this is what you do. This is who you are too.
I mean, you, you, you already do this. Word of obvious. Gaby, this is, I'm like, this is so good. Can you, because I want to, uh, I'm really fascinated by the horse. I'm not going to say I'm scared of horses, but I'm not like trying to go ride horses or anything like that. Um, can you, and the story that you shared, I don't know how to pronounce that horse's name.
Is it Drommer? I don't want to Oh, well, I can't pronounce it with the right Icelandic accent, but yes, Dramer. So Dramer, which means dream in Icelandic. That horse is beautiful. Could you maybe talk about that story? And because what you just said and what you've been, what you've been talking about this whole time very much ties into seemingly from the story you told me before, how you eventually ended up, you know, approaching this horse and realizing what needed to be done.
Yeah. In fact, it is. In fact, people who knew me from the, the, you know, the old life when I was doing that, you know, creating badass users. Tour they were like you're just doing the same thing with horses now. It's creating badass horses. I'm like, yeah, it's basically the same thing the world so dreamer was this, you know, kind of the love horse of my life and He and he was young.
He was a young stallion, but he started to have all of these Extreme difficulties in movement and he just became over the short period of time. Just you know really unhappy and, and then he started doing really strange things. He would fall over, he wasn't moving at all anymore, and, uh, he would get angry if you tried to ask him.
And, so, had three independent veterinarians come out and assess him and they said, he has a neurological disease. And it was a disease that was known. It's actually where a It's pretty creepy. A protozoa invades the, um, your nervous system. And so he tested positive for being exposed to it, which I later learned, you know, lots and lots of horses are exposed to it.
But the only way to know for sure if it had actually invaded his nervous system was a spinal tap. And that was a very invasive, difficult procedure. So they said, well, there's no side effect to the treatment. So just, let's just give him the treatment because we have literally ruled out everything else.
And so we gave him the treatment for several months. He was just left alone, right? Nothing improved. In fact, he just kept getting worse. And at some point, it was like, you're going to have to really make a decision because he can't even survive like this anymore. And he's in constant danger of just, you know, falling over and not getting back up.
And it was just the most gut wrenching thing. And this went on for months and months. And then finally, a new test was developed that one of my vets had heard about. And it, and UC Davis retested him. And so it turns out he doesn't have it. And I'm like, I was like elated. And then I went, Oh God, now what?
Then what is it? I mean, at least then we had some hope. And, um, and that's when I met my mentor, who's the man that had, was my partner in the movement science stuff. And you see him in the videos and pictures from Iceland. And he said, I know what to do. Um, you know, you're basically your horses lost all will to live and move and I know what to do.
And he, he, you know, he lived hundreds of miles away at the time, but he, so he took dreamer away, had him for seven months, dreamer comes back and he's incredible. He's incredible. He's a completely different horse. He has, like I said, twice the range of motion. He's just so happy and proud and athletic and it was amazing.
So I have him back, you know, It was maybe two or three months when I started to see the signs that he was still, he was, well, he was deteriorating again, and it just kept getting worse. No matter what I did, I was doing every possible training thing I could. I had other professional trainers, and then he started to just get worse.
Get scary like he would if I asked him to move he would pin his ears and try to charge at me And he would act like I'm gonna kick you. I'm gonna bite you. You know, I hate you like moving was that Horrible for him and and yet there was nothing that could be found. And so It was literally the last night where, you know, my husband's like, you have to make a decision.
He either goes to a retirement pasture at age seven, or he's going to have to be euthanized because this is no way for him to live. And it's just not, This is not sustainable. And I was up all night reading, uh, well, one book was a 2000 year old horsemanship book by the Greek warrior, Xenophon. And the other book was Dan Pink's book drive, which I think most everyone's probably seen that Ted talk on intrinsic motivation, which, and these are all topics, you know, that I knew very well.
I knew the science, it's what I had taught, but I somehow never applied it to horses. And in Dan Pink's book, he had this line at the end that said. People are not like horses simply responding to carrot and stick. And I sat there and I, you know, I was just really cynical and I said, yeah, well, horses don't respond like horses either.
And then I thought, wait a minute. Well, if horses don't respond like horses, maybe what works for humans would work for horses. And the big question is mastery. What, what does he want to get good at? What does he want to be good at? And, you know, it was just like, So profound and so silly and obvious at the same time.
He wants to be a horse. He doesn't want to be my horse. He doesn't want to be a riding horse. He doesn't want to be, you know, all these different things. His main goal is to be, you know, an awesome, badass, proud horse. Like, He doesn't care, you know, what humans see in him. He cares what other horses see and his experience with other horses.
And so I, the next day I changed everything that I did. And I'd say within a week, my husband was like, his jaw was dropping. He's like, what, what did you do? He's a completely different horse when I wasn't even with him. Like he would be a completely different horse interacting with the other horses. You know, I could just see all the lights coming back and it was, Basically taking that approach that, uh, he needs to feel badass, and the only way I can connect to that is through helping him basically have badass posture, you know, stand proud, move, you know, proudly.
And of course, now I realize that, basically his problem was he probably had the worst proprioception ever. And because he stopped moving, right, he just, his proprioception just went down and down and down until his nervous system said, You basically shouldn't move at all because any move is risky. So now through the lens of, you know, make the nervous system happy.
People who've learned, you know, how to make these transformations, they're doing in, you know, a few weeks what still took me months and months and months. Uh, it's amazing. But that was his transformation. That was the start of the, you know, of everything for him. And now it's been almost 10 years and he just keeps getting younger.
He just, he just keeps getting happier, keeps getting younger, keeps surprising me. It's amazing. Is this what you do now, you train horses? Um, I'm not a professional trainer. I have, we have a horse farm with our own horses on it. And when my mentor was here, he's now back in Iceland. Then we had, um, ten horses.
My husband and I have four. And then my mentor had three client horses. And And three of his own. And then, so he went back to Iceland. Those horses all had to leave. And one of them is the stallion that I just started posting about because we managed to get him back because he was just, he was, he was too much fun.
And, and he's, he also has a lot of, really extreme difficulties. So I thought, no, he needs to be here. So I'm happy about that. So I just work with my own horses. And then I, you know, I, as a result of all this, this going down the rabbit hole of modern movement science and following you, um, I created an online course on movement science applied to horses.
And that's, that's basically what I do. And, you know, I, my husband and I both survive on our book royalties and he also works as an editor. So Yeah. Kathy, why horses? I mean, clearly your passion's always been a thing, but what is it about them? I don't think I can answer that. Um, well, a lot of people used to say, or do say, especially, you know, in the United States, like, oh, horses, like, it's a girl thing, right?
My little pony. But you go to other cultures, like Iceland, and it was primarily a guy thing. You know, it's, it's not, it's not, oh, a girl and her horse, you know, it's, um, part of it is. You know, when you're on a horse and you really are connected to that horse and you know that the horse wants to be moving.
I mean, think about it. It's like you've just put on a superpower suit. I mean, suddenly you're really fast and you're really strong and you can do incredible and you're tall and you can do incredible things. And if you are in sync. It's just, it is the most amazing feeling because your, um, you know, your body map, if you ride enough, you start to map all the way down to the horse's feet.
So it starts to be like, those are your feet. Those are your legs. And the horse starts to have a body map that includes you. So, you know, like if the horse really doesn't like you up there, they will find a low branch where they can knock you off. But if they want to, you know, if they're, if they're happy in being a partnership with you, then, you know, then they know.
Okay, I know where your head is, and so I know that I might fit under that, but you won't. And it's, it's just, there's nothing else where you can have that experience, again, without a, you know, superpower suit. Did, uh, the movie Avatar really resonate with you? Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. That movie. I feel like everything you were just talking about, that movie had to have really resonated with you.
Absolutely. I personally love that movie, but they, this concept of, and I love that you kind of use that word mapping. So you guys that are out there with any kind of science, neuro background, it's like, wow, seeing these things tie together and become one. And that's, that's amazing. That's pretty profound.
I've never had that experience on a horse, but I've only been on like one time and I was like, Oh, I'm kind of scared of this. So perhaps that, that will change. It takes, yeah, that takes time. But a lot of people never experienced that even after, you know, 30 years. I mean, I didn't experience it for all of those years because I didn't understand movement from my horse's perspective.
And because to be honest, most horses are not given autonomy. They're not given right of consent. They just, they don't have a choice. You know, I mean, people could be really kind. But the horse doesn't have a choice. So, um, you know, in, in the science of intrinsic motivation, autonomy is an absolute prerequisite.
You cannot have intrinsic motivation. You cannot have flow states. You cannot have true play. The neurophysiology and neurobiology of an actual play state, as it's been studied, requires autonomy. If it's not voluntary, I mean, that we learned, you know, long time ago. I mean, that's part of what I taught at UCLA.
You know, the phrase is, if you must play, you can't play. It just doesn't work. And so I knew that we had to give them complete freedom. And what was really shocking at that point is because everyone would say, well, but if you give them freedom, the right to say no, of course they're going to say no. And it was like, well, then it's, then it's our job to try to figure out how to create experiences for them.
where they want to be a willing participant. And so a lot of people, the first couple years we would show stuff, people didn't believe us. They literally thought behind the scenes, we were like, you know, hitting them or training them with a bunch of stuff. And then, and then just for the video, we'd take everything off, you know, and the horse was too afraid to do, you know, the wrong thing.
We're like, it was like, they literally couldn't believe a horse would work that. Hard , you know, as a volunteer. Wow. But yeah, that's just, you know, the, the, you know, nature's pharmacy, right? The endorphins, yeah, the NORAD adrenaline. Yeah, the serotonin, you know. Sure. You get all of the good things, the cannabinoids for sure.
It's all there, but just we never gave horses a chance to experience it. When you say it, it makes so much sense, you know, I love that you kind of talk about becoming a superhero. And yeah, you know, a horse could want to do that on its own. Think about how fun it is, you know, when we have freedom of movement and you can jump and run and whatever CrossFit, whatever you guys like doing.
And now imagine because a horse can do it like a million times better, right? Faster, stronger, bigger. Yeah, they, it makes sense that they'd want to do it, that they could want to do that and want to perform and, you know, at that level, if it's what they want to be doing. Absolutely. Yeah. It makes sense. When you say it, Kathy, it makes so much sense.
It's, it's, yeah. I mean, people, I think a lot of people don't truly understand some of that. You know, the science of what happens in, for example, a flow state or a more intrinsically motivated state. I mean, the flow state is a really clear example of intrinsic motivation, but there could be others. And, and that's been pretty well studied.
I think there's a whole entire textbook on intrinsic motivation and, you know, sports, fitness, exercise compliance, right? I mean, I mean, none of this will surprise you, of course, but Yeah, like the studies show that people who do things like martial arts will be far more likely to sustain an exercise program than people who are, okay, I got to go to the gym and you know, do my exercise program, but they don't have any intrinsically rewarding experiences connected to it.
Um, but if they do, I mean, you know, it's, then you get all of those good chemicals and you know, those good chemicals are performance enhancing drugs. I mean, they are exactly what allows you to do bigger, harder movements. And so, Everything we try to do is say, if we're going to ask this horse to do hard work, and we want him to, we want him to think, this is incredible.
And we also want him to be physically capable of doing it. So we want, you know, like I said, we want nature's pharmacy. to kick in. And for that, we have to connect to experiences they find intrinsically rewarding. And to me, that's worth everything. Even if it's only for a few moments, it makes them so much more willing to do, you know, some of the basic, harder, not intrinsically rewarding things to get to those moments.
So good. Kathy, the stuff that you've, the stuff that you've put out for horses, I want to kind of reverse this. Would that be, uh, for people that are, that are working with horses, excuse me, the material that you've put out for people working with horses, would this be appropriate for those who are not working with horses?
to still read and apply to their population? Well, I think so. Um, but in many ways, that's what people like you are already doing. Um, I mean, we do focus heavily on the connection between motivation and movement. And I think like what I told you in the beginning, um, I was very focused on first the motivation side, right?
That, that's the part that let me save that horse's life. But then I began to work more and more on the movement side, like, okay, first you get them motivated and then you can do the real stuff, right? And then finally I came full circle and realized that you can't decouple movement from motivation. You have to always be thinking of them together.
And what does that mean? And then you get this sort of virtuous, you know, cycle. where they get motivated so they can move, they move so that they can get motivated, and pretty soon you have this whole dance thing going, and it's, it's just amazing. But it, it really is kind of this balancing. Of movement and motivation together.
For sure. You know, there's this, there's this other huge revolution in the athletic high performance coaching side, right? They're, they're having this kind of a, a huge divide at the moment, um, between some of the really newer perspectives. I say newer, but they're also sort of older, but just, you know, you know how that is.
You finally come around to the things that you should have known 40 years ago. And. And that's also been helpful because, I mean, one of the guys that's kind of been a mentor for me with some of this new stuff is he, he coaches, um, he's a, he's a movement specialist developer for NFL football players. So he's had like, like 20 of the top NFL football players, and they already have their, all their coaches, right?
They hire him independently to say, make me. a better mover. And so he's just helping them become more adaptable movers. And, but using this really, um, what's called the ecological dynamics model. And so it's really about movement exploration, movement variability. Um, so there's a lot of autonomy baked in because it's about backing way up from giving explicit control.
cues for how the person is supposed to move. It's, it's very hands off and it's all about creating situations that are going to, um, you know, that are going to cause the person to have to experience these really unpredictable, changing, um, Situations so that they're really training their agility in a real way.
So like one of the things they're really dead against is that thing called the agility ladder or moving around cones, right? There's, there's this whole group and they're like, they're like on a war against cone drills. Cause they're like, you know, they're like, here's the guy, he's the coach and he's got his, you know, he's got his people doing cone drills and then he's yelling at them to look up, look up.
And they're like, are you crazy? You know, and they're like, a cone is not the size of a human and it doesn't move. And you know, the said principle, right? So there's the specificity. And even though, you know, even though the said principle we know is, has all kinds of weird things now that can mediate it, but without these.
Um, you know, a more natural environmental situation, then the information that the athlete is picking up in the environment is completely different. And so, at best, it's just not hurting them. But a lot of times, you know, they've done studies like on cricket players, where the ball machine can feel like it's, I mean, by measurements, it's delivering the ball in exactly the same way.
But, The gaze of the batter is different in a significant way. So it's, you know, so anytime that you can make things more representative and just more, um, adaptable. Random question here, Kathy. What would a, an ideal physical therapy clinic, whatever you want to call it, clinic, studio, whatever, what would an ideal physical clinic look like to you, based on all the stuff that you just said?
Wow. I, I've never thought of that. And honestly, I haven't been to a physical therapy clinic in a long time and all of my experiences were awful. There you go. Let's speak on that. Um, I, well, unfortunately I'm going to just fall back to quoting Gray Cook because I think this made sense to me. He said, if you can really tell the difference between like what your fitness trainer is doing and your physical therapist and your massage therapist and your chiropractor, maybe something's wrong.
Like you shouldn't even be able to. feel that much difference. So I think, um, it would be, um, I don't know what it would look like except that I'm, I'm imagining that it would have a lot of, you know, natural equipment and things that would best replicate the kinds of things that you will do in your real life.
Um, but also, um, That will have natural affordances. Do you know what I mean by the word affordances? Mm hmm. Okay, so natural affordances You know, they would invite you to be able to do more things in a really natural and authentic way So that the physical therapist is not having to give nearly as many explicit Instructions and cues because, you know, you're not going to follow that person home that night and work with them.
So, allowing their body to actually reacquire what it once had and is capable of regaining. But in the most, um, authentic way. So using, um, I don't even want to say cues, you know, using affordances in the environment. So it's like, Oh, reach for that. Grab that. Oh, you better climb up that. Um, in whatever way is most supportive.
And then thinking about, all right, well, how quickly can we load some of these patterns, right? If this is functional, let's load it. And so in whatever way makes sense. Um, No matter what, I'm really a huge, huge proponent of the idea of variability, you know, increasing the bandwidth for any movement so that it does become a lot more robust so that you can, especially in horses.
I honestly am not familiar anymore with, you know, sports injuries and injuries in humans, but in horses, the, and the scary thing about horses is a lot of times when sport horses are injured, they die. You know, they're, so it is life or death, right? There's not going to be any ACL repair, you know, so it really matters.
And, uh, the number one, uh, cause of injuries in sport horses is cumulative microtrauma, something that basically never happens to a wild horse. So there's so much good training with horses has been focused on high repetition of the same movements to get them extremely precise. And it was the old biomechanics model, right?
The one that I, Tried to run away from with humans, which is that you must work more and more and more toward the one correct biomechanically most efficient movement And so they all became really fragile and it just became a cliche, right that people would say Oh I think I need to wrap my fancy dressage horse in bubble wrap because if they turned him out To be a horse with another horse, he would get a terrible injury.
It's like something's very wrong here and And And then some of these coaches that I, the human coaches I've worked with have said, Oh yeah, that's the same thing. We call it the track athlete who twists his ankle when he gets out of his car on the way to the track. You know, they, they haven't moved in the transverse plane in years, you know, just that whole idea.
So yeah, robust. And then if we're really. We're really doing our job anti fragile, so, you know. Mm hmm. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Kathy, this is, you guys listening, she's saying all the best things and really where we need to be heading, where the field is heading. So I don't want, I don't want to say we need to be heading, like it's not going in that direction.
But it is. And I really wanted to kind of pick your brain about the facility. I was just actually teaching last weekend and I was at this place called, uh, Rehab to Perform. And, you know, it hits that quote that Greg Cook said, you know, hits it in the nail right in the head there where you can't tell the difference between, you know, your PT or your strength coach because it's all in the same, same spectrum.
But also creating an environment that's still, um, inviting. Cause I think that sometimes, not sometimes, the pendulum tends to swing too far. And then you'll see like these very gym looking, you know, Olympic lifting looking spaces, which is still a manmade construct and is somewhat in terms of creating an experience can be off putting to some people.
So I like that you, you, you stayed in the middle there and you said one thing that was really interesting. You said, you know, I want you to reach for this. I want you to climb on this. I don't know if I've ever been in a, in a physical therapy space where you could actually climb onto something, which is a problem.
I was like going through my, my memory bank that I'm like, have I ever even seen a place? Like that's, and that's the problem. We're trying to get people back to being human and yet we have them in these very artificial environments. Right, right. And it's a huge limitation in your life. I mean, I, well, so you had a, one of your maestrosims very recently.
I had it on my story. The one about if you want to get better at man made movements, practice man made movements. If you want to be safe in man made movements, practice all the movements. Is that? Yes. Yeah. And that was just, of course, fabulous. And yeah, so, I mean, I know that should seem obvious, but it, it really, I think the, you know, we're, we're not yet at the place where that has completely shifted even in the human world.
Although, you're way ahead. of the equestrian world. So in the equestrian world, we are insane. And so that's why we, I mean, me and my mentor and the few people we have, well now we have, actually now we have quite a few people, but, um, you know, that's why I like to keep pointing to, you know, no, it's, it's not coming from us.
We're just sort of remapping that to horses, um, who turns out their exercise physiology isn't all that different from humans. They're, they're just, they're, uh, They have sort of, they're like a super athlete. Horses are, they can build more quickly. They atrophy more slowly that, you know, they, they have lots of, they've, they're all fast twitch though.
There, there are no sort of, uh, horses that are predominantly slow twitch fibers. So that's another problem. We don't really train them for what they're actually designed to do, which is do a lot of nothing. And then suddenly Full power, you know, escape the tiger. But so that's a lot of what we do is train them in a more, in a way that they're more naturally suited to do.
And a lot of them, a lot of people, their horses have been trained so much to go slow, right? And, uh, they've almost forgotten how to even be a horse, which is, they should be able to accelerate from zero to fast. And as soon as you start helping them rediscover that, they're so happy, right? It's such a great feeling.
You can just, you can just see them go, Oh, this is amazing. I'm sure that you've seen that kind of light that goes on in the eyes of, you know, of people that you work with when they just suddenly feel themselves doing something more powerful than they thought they could do. It's the same. That's what we see in the horses.
It is just amazing. Absolutely, Kathy. That, that's, that light and seeing that moment is what keeps me going half the time. You know, I love teaching and I do that, you know, I teach rock tape for myself now and that's the thing I want to leave these courses with. It's not like, oh, do you know how to use tape now?
Do you know how to use tools now? It's the best comment from someone is when you leave and they're like, I'm excited to go back to work. I'm excited to do X, Y, and Z. Yes. Is the best. We call it just what it's all about. Aliveness. It's just you're, you're bringing back some Aliveness, something that was missing and, and, you know, a lot of it really just straight up is missing right the smudging of the, you know, of the, of the maps and things that have, you know, that have gone missing, but there's still, there's still the capacity for them.
And we're just sort of re setting things so that the nervous system can do what it needs to do and then the connection between the nervous system and, you know, or the horse and his own nervous system and his movement system, when that all starts to come together, it's literally like watching them come back to life.
And, you know, and I'm like, if my horse could do it, any horse could do it. I was going to ask before, and this is like totally another totally random thing. How do you make a horse, and maybe you don't need to, how do you make them stronger? Because you had said before, you know, we're talking about looking in the physical therapy world, in the human realm, of look at that pattern, own that pattern, and then load it.
Right. Do you do this with horses? Well, actually, I know this is so this was really strange. It's almost and I don't know why because it's this should be the most obvious thing, but it's pretty rare with horses to actually load them with with weight in the saddle before they go for a rider. So suddenly a horse's first experience with the rider is it's a pretty significant increase.
In weight on their back and their back has never, was never designed to carry weight. So it's, so we have to artificially, um, you know, work on their posture to be able to teach them to resist that load, which is, that's basically the foundation of what we do is let's teach the horse to. resist that load because if, if that's all that people get from what we do, the horse will have a better life and better experience.
And so, but what we do is just the most obvious, right? When, if we're getting like right now, we're getting ready to start riding the horses again or to, you know, start getting them ready. So we just, we put the saddle on them and then we just start adding little sandbags. They just, and we just scale up the weight.
And we just look at the pattern, right? If the pattern falls apart, then, okay, we have to reduce the weight or we just don't do that pattern with that weight. So a lot of times the horses will have some movements they can do, like they could start out with a walk, a loaded walk, and it still keeps all of its quality and, you know, all their posture.
And maybe we go to a different gate and they start to, you know, hollow in their back a little bit, right? Then we'll go, okay, we either can't do that or we just have to reduce the load. It's really simple. But we also, of course, use gravity. So we do a lot with, you know, down, going down a hill. So, and going back up a hill.
But for a lot of what we do, just having the horse, you know, go slowly in control down a hill where they have to literally You know, resist gravity and they get some, you know, uh, some eccentric training, right? And, uh, and then we also teach them to do movements that we can then make those movements more difficult, even like plyometrics, you know, so just stuff like that.
This is fascinating to me. Most of it, honestly, I think is your passion for it. This is fascinating. I'm going to ask one more horse question because this stuff, like I said, it's interesting, and then I'm going to leave you alone. But you talk about on your account, actually, you guys, her account is now Panther Flows.
It was intrinsic before, but she Change the name. It's okay to change things. Uh, and they actually did a whole post about that and what, what the new name was about. But definitely go and check her out. I will put that in the show notes. But the question I was going to ask, You speak about this type of gait pattern.
I think it's called tolting. Did I make, is that? Oh, yeah. Yes, because I was like, what is this? Can you even if you guys listen don't want to hear it fine But I want to hear what what exactly is this? Um, So they now have actually found the gene for it, which is it's pretty recent So it was suspected because you know, you can breed for it, but they've actually identified the gene that allows Certain horses to have more than their normal Gates so most horses, you know, they have a walk and then they have and when they speed up from walk Just like you know how at some point a person, you know, you put them on the treadmill at some point They're gonna break out of walk and into you know, jogging and then running So at some point same thing horses will will cross over into a trotting gate Which is you know that they have four legs on the ground.
It's just a diagonal pair. So it's a two beat, um, two beat, the diagonal feet. One, two, one, two. And then the gated horses can do that and the opposite. So they can also do two legs on the same side, which is really freaky. Yeah. And the tolt is an in between gate and it's absolutely amazing because it feels like you're floating on a cloud.
And they can do it at very high speeds. So they can go almost as fast as a horse that's, you know, almost galloping. And you don't feel like you're moving at all. It, it's incredible. It feels like you're, you know, you're in a glider instead of a, you know, a propeller plane. Yeah, it's really, well. Is this taught?
Or they, Um, no, it's, well, it's natural because it is genetic, but you often will have to, to be able to ride it. It, it does take better posture in the horse to do it well. So that's a big, that's a big plus is the things that we do. That's one of the first things we started saying, even though we, we have people with all different kinds of horses, but the people with the gated horses will be, Oh my gosh, I started doing, you know, this, you know, this.
You know, core stability work with my horse, and two weeks later, he was just doing that gait. Um, because it does take a little bit more, uh, for their center of mass to be shifted more to their hind legs. So they have to be a little bit more in an agile, kind of, you know, ready position. And, and so, um, and then it's just there, but they can do it.
Um, but if you've, have you ever been to Iceland? Uh, no. No, I have not. So, you know, and it, if you want to go someplace and feel like you went to another planet, um, that's what the terrain looks like. It's incredible. And it's, and all the horses basically on the whole country have many, many months where they're just out in the wilds.
They're just out, all out together. And it's, uh, the terrain is so harsh and difficult and uneven that the first time I got out to try to walk out to see these horses, I, I physically couldn't walk through this Field of like grass covered lava rocks because I thought I'm gonna break my leg and the horse is just out there So that you know, they have they have the they live the definition of a rich proprioceptive Experience and it shows they're incredibly adaptable, but People have said, Oh yeah, they, these are the Viking horses, right?
That were brought over. And they said, yeah, they, cause they needed to be able to carry drunk Vikings home over any terrain and the drunk Viking doesn't want to fall off. So it's amazing. So I'll tell you my, my yellow horse, Draymer, he and I were in California for a whole year. We were the beer Tolt champion.
And it's where you're on a basically like a little racing track and you have a full glass of beer and everybody else is out there with their full glass of beer. And then the judge just starts telling you to tolt and tolt and start changing directions, do all these things. And whoever has the most beer left wins.
I love it. Yeah. I love it. That's our story. I just, that like competitive side of me was just like, this is amazing and I could see like if you have a horse that wants to do this stuff, it'd be like, yo, Kathy, we're going to do this. We're going to win this. Like, this is amazing. That's so cool. Ah, love this.
You guys listening, I do, I know for a fact that I have some clinicians that work with horses. Um, so you guys listening, if that's you and you want more, definitely check out her Instagram account and where can they find you, Kathy? Can they contact you? What, what, what do you want to share with them in terms of stuff?
I think the Instagram account is the best place to both, you know, it's got a link in our bio, but to just, you know, find us and to get a feel for the kinds of things that we talk about and the kinds of things that we do, I mean, it's, it's probably, 60, 40, 60 percent movement science that applies to humans as well.
In fact, most of it came from, you know, human studies. And then the other 40 percent is, you know, a combination of things related to motivation and, you know, it's a big transformation for people to actually do that. switch to doing something like this and it's been very difficult for people and a lot of people feel alone.
You know, we have people all over the world and now through Instagram, a lot of them are finding each other and then getting together in real life, which is incredible because, you know, when you make any big drastic change away from the mainstream, it's not a, it's not always a happy place to be. Um, and especially if it takes kind of a leap of faith and I think that's what's happening now, but I just, I mean, the Instagram community is.
Unbelievable, you know, I've, I've, I've really walked away from all other social media because there's so much toxic stuff and Instagram is just amazing. And then I found you. Speaking my language, man. There you go. I'm like, I don't, I don't know how the algorithm, geez, how the algorithms put us together, but I mean, I started following and I was like, this is.
Unreal actually you had commented on something and I was like I looked at I look at and whenever the people comment I look at their account and I'm like who is this person and I remember looking at yours and I was like How did this even happen? Cuz it was a little you know horse stuff and then I lost it The comment and I found you like months later and I was like, I was trying to write back and I lost you.
I couldn't find the, and I was looking at the horse accounts and I couldn't find this one. So I'm glad that the algorithms brought everything back. Cause this has been incredible. And yes, uh, Instagram is in my humble opinion. Absolutely. The best platform. And now, and we have a bunch of our horse students now that follow you, and I just absolutely love it.
Like, I'll go and see one of your posts and I'll see, you know, who liked it, people in my community, right? And I'll see all my horse people. I'm like, this is great. The coolest thing. Yeah. I get tagged in some of these posts, like horse posts, and I'm like, this is amazing because, you know, movement unites us all.
I've always said it. Yes. But this is, to see it, like, come to fruition and in such a real way and on such a platform that I love. And, and also just to see you. Doing something very much leading a charge here. Like you said that where you know, you have a very massive following behind you now But what you're bringing people together that it is very lonely when you're at the tip of the spear.
Absolutely Yeah, and you found a way to unite these people and For the good of, of movement, for the good of the, of these, of these horses. It's just so much good coming out of it. So, C, can I squish one more thing in? Go ahead. Can I squish one more thing in, because the, when you said movement unites us all, and I was just thinking about how, you know there are a lot of people, a lot of our students, right, that have, because they've learned about movement through.
Applying it to their horses. Two things have happened. I mean, it's resonated for them personally and Pretty soon. They've started to find themselves, you know, actually Adopting some even though we really talk about it only very rarely in our course about you know Actually, here's some human stuff that you can do Um, they start applying the principles and they start, you know, they're following you and pretty soon they're, you know, they're doing stuff.
So people have, have been sending me stories now about how their own, their own movement, their own life and movement health has been transformed by doing this. And, um, But a lot of it is they care so much about their horse's movement and we do so much that's on the ground where you really, you really as much as possible need to be able to help the horse move forward.
And a lot of times that's you moving forward. And so people are like running for the first time in years because they're running with the horse. They would never have gone out and had a reason to run. And I don't know, I remember a long time ago, but I don't remember the exact studies where. Um, there was something that looked at people were, of course, so much more willing to make sure their animals or dogs exercise than themselves, but that for some people that was literally their, their way in to exercise is because if they needed to make that connection so that they could help, you know, the health and wellbeing of their animal.
So I was just thinking for movement professionals, you know, anything that you can connect to in that person's life that is motivating for them. Because again, you know, I mean, I run a lot, but I hate running. It's just never felt good to me. I'm not one of those people. Um, and, but yet when I'm running with the horse, it's a completely transformative experience.
So it's that kind of thing. It's like, it's worth it. And then it, and then all of a sudden it's a different thing. Just like dancing. People will exercise their ass off if they're dancing. Yeah. Yeah. I said, Kathy, you, this, this intrinsic motivation coming. You said it, that quote is so profound. It's probably gonna be tonight's DM.
If you must play, you can't play. That is. Everything. That is everything. As soon as you can reframe things and figure out what this person wants to be doing and find a way to do that and help them do that, oh, this world opens up. So good, Kathy. So good. So good. So we're hitting that, uh, we've actually hit it, that hour mark.
I try to keep it at an hour so people can, like, listen on the way to the car. No, this is great. I'm going to bring you back on because this is, I know people are going to want it, so it will definitely happen again. But before I let you go, is there anything you'd want to, that you want to leave the people with?
Any last words? Anything. Anything.
I think this, this idea that I mentioned at the beginning, that if you really, if you really, really go all in on, it's not about me, it's about creating a context, experiences for people where they can become something they want to be, something they want to do. What would that look like? Literally, just sit down with a piece of paper and write down what would it look like if I, if I went all in on that, if it really was about designing that experience.
Instead of designing what I'm going to do with them, I'm going to design what they're going to be able to do. Or, you know, even make a list of what superpowers can I give them. That's it. You guys, uh. Kathy, I love you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you've shared and coming on and just being you.
This is truly an honor to have you on, so it's such an honor to be, to be here. Thank you so much. I'm obviously such a fan girl, so, uh, yeah, this is great. It goes both ways, so this is, this is awesome. This is awesome. Thank you. You guys, you guys, you're welcome, Kathy. Thank you. You guys listening, thank you.
I know you could have been doing anything, but you chose to listen to us. And for that, I am endlessly, endlessly, endlessly grateful. Not going to ask you to subscribe, not going to ask you to, uh, leave any likes or messages or anything like that. If you enjoyed this episode, I want you to follow Kathy's last words that she gave her.
That's not a really negative last words. The parting words, uh, that she left us with and think about that moving forward when you go to work with your clients, your patients, your customers, whoever. Until next time friends, Kathy and Maestro, out.
Connect with Kathy: @pantherflows
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