[Transcript starts at [1:27]
Hello friends, Maestro here bringing you another episode of my favorite podcast. We are switching it up today and we have a guest episode, and this is like a super bonus guest episode because I've got someone from the audience. Oftentimes I'm bringing on friends, colleagues, people that I hang out with in person.
Uh, and after episode 439 and I was talking about ChatGPT I was having a conversation in the DMs, uh, and I speak with this young woman quite often, and she was like, Hey, you know, I'm a teacher and we're going back and forth, and I was like, Hey, would you be willing to come on the podcast and share your thoughts and ideas and experiences with this, because for those of you who don't know, ChatGPT, it's here. It's not going anywhere. ChatGPT, uh, if you wanna like dive deep into it, episode 439, but ChatGPT, short summary here. It's a chat bot that interacts in a way, in a conversational way. So you input a statement, and you type a command, you ask a question and it generates a response.
You can get it to create things for you, summarize things for you, do things for you, which if you're listening around the edges, perhaps you're like, Hey, what does that mean for school? Are people able to have their work done for them? And what does this mean for the learning process? And this was something that I brought up cuz I'm concerned about, uh, schools just saying, Hey, we're not gonna use it at all.
Like, we're scared of this thing and we're gonna block it. And Susan slid in the dms and I was like, yo, you are dropping the fire. So maybe hold that so we can share it with everyone else.
So a little, uh, summary biography here. Uh, Susan, she's got her MA in communication studies and is a lecturer with continuing appointment in the Merit Writing program at the University of California Merced.
That is a huge part there. Writing, writing program, that's a big thing. Uh, she's been teaching at the college level for almost 30 years, and at UC merced since 2006. The campus only opened in 2005, it's kind of a big deal. Almost, get this number folks, 30 years of higher education instruction ranging from community college to university.
She brings a unique perspective on education in general and how technology has impacted not only what we teach, and this is what I'm so excited about, but how we teach. Uh, to quote her ChatGPT is the latest in these emerging technologies impacting the landscape of the writing. classroom. One of the things that she sent over, I asked people that are gonna come on, send a little blurb about themselves, and I, I loved this part here:
miller balances their time between the classroom and the gym. As a certified personal trainer focusing on women and education, the conversations about curriculum and pedagogy go hand in hand with weights, strength, and evolution. We cannot teach the same way we did in the 1950s, just like we cannot work out like we did in the 1980s.
She's a bit of a wordsmith, folks. Bit of a wordsmith.
Well, thank you.
Lastly to round it out here, Miller is a wife and mother of, and I love this, four grown and flown children. Without further ado, welcome to the show my new good friend, Susan Miller. Susan, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
Well, thank you very much.
This is quite the treat and the honor for me.
This is, this is awesome. And, this chick is like, Hey, we're gonna figure out this tech cuz I'm, I'm using a new system, folks, we switched over to Riverside and there's some like, you know, headphones stuff. We had a little bit of a moment beforehand, but here we are.
Everything's fixed. And we're gonna talk today about ChatGPT. So before we go into ChatGPT I know I gave them your, your biography as per what you shared with us, but I feel like you've got other things that you'd love to share or, or might fill in the blanks a little bit, uh, regarding just your background and, and what you do. Who you are.
Loaded question.
I know that's, that's, I did on purpose give it to me.
Um, well, I have, I have been teaching in higher education for almost 30 years. Um, kind of fell into it backwards. I finished up my undergrad in information and communication sciences with an emphasis in organizational communication.
Partnered that with, um, a minor in public relations, marketing and advertising. And at the ripe old age of 22, looking at graduation, I said, mm, I'm gonna be Peter Pan. I don't wanna deal with the real world. So I went to grad school and got my master's in human communication studies with an emphasis in, um, political rhetoric.
Wow.
And, well, you know, it was the eighties and politics was kind of emerging. There were a lot of, um, classes that overlapped, rhetoric and politics and it all just kind of fell together. So, um, coming outta school with that, I fell backwards into teaching interpersonal communication and small group communication at the local community college up in Northern California.
And fell in love with it. So when UC Merced was announced and started building, um, my own children were at a good age to move. And I looked at my husband and I said, it's time for me to go home. So I actually, I actually grew up here. I, um, where the campus is used to be the community golf course. So I tell my students very jokingly that if they find any golf balls with my name on 'em, they can have five extra points.
Hasn't happened yet, but nobody's dragged the lake. Um, so it's, it's, it's an interesting combination being, um, coming home after 20 some years and teaching at, um, it, it's a 21st century research university, the newest campus in the UC chain. Um, we are the only university. In, um, or the University of California, in the Central Valley, which is oh, kind of pivotal to what we're gonna be talking about as far as the trajectory of pedagogy and curriculum and all that.
Our, we are the only University of California in the Central Valley. Our student population is, um, I don't have the exact numbers cuz they keep changing, but we are, over 50% of our students are first gen.
Wow.
College students, um, a lot of them are non-native speakers.
Okay. Um, So it's key.
It it is very key. And that's, that's part of why I, I, in the, in my bio, I said, you can't te- we can't teach like we did in the 1950s or even the 1980s.
The world has changed. And as an instructor, I feel that if we don't change with the world, we're doing a huge disservice not only to our students, but to our communities.
Speak on. I have questions, but, can we talk about this disservice? Let's go in that direction.
Ab, absolutely.
Um, a part of what I focus on in my classroom, and I mostly teach first year writing.
So I'm getting these kids at 17, 18, 19 years old. For many of them, this is their first time away from home, their first time away from family, their first time being encouraged to think for themselves. And I honestly believe that if we don't teach them how to think, think critically and question things, that nothing is ever going to change.
If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always gotten.
I would love to take credit for that, but I think it was a line out of an episode of N C I S . I can see, I can see Denoso talking to the director.
I got a question for you in that.
What has always been done? I would love for you to, we'll go into pedagogy and everything. I would love for you to break down, because you said, you know, the way that we taught in the fifth- 1950s is we, we can't, and the way we work out in the 1980s, we can't be doing that now. What was the approach that when you first started teaching, what was that?
Um, very much mimicry. Here is a compare and contrast essay. This is what makes it a compare and contrast essay. Here's an example of a compare and contrast essay. Now go write one. Which is great because you're, you know, teaching them form and structure and genre, which are all very, very important. But does that allow them to come up with their own creative ideas or express themselves?
One of the emerging approaches, it's not really a pedagogy, it's more an approach, um, that myself and some of my colleagues have started following is, um, this concept, writing about writing. And it was developed by writing instructors across the country that at a conference we're talking about what they see in the classroom and what's lacking.
And one of the biggest things, especially for first gen college students is their voice. Many of them have never been encouraged or, or supported to come up with their own voice. The, what do you think? And yeah, and it's, you know, proper English, whatever that is, is awesome and is great. And if you can figure out where to put the commas and make sure your verb tense is great and all that, that's awesome.
But if you don't have an idea, if I can't figure out what your underlying message is, it doesn't matter if the commas are in the right space.
That I just got chills because this is, it speaks to a bigger, there's a bigger underlying theme and importance here. And you were talking, you know, alluding to it earlier, but that question that you just said of what do you think, right. Where we understand, we've heard this, find your voice, but, when we start asking someone, what do you think that starts tying into people feeling valued and having self-worth and identity? Like this is a way bigger way, way, way bigger discussion.
How was that received when you started doing the writing, uh, teaching, writing about writing?
Um, the, the students love it.
They, it's, it's, it's a mixture of, um, fear because they've got freedom and excitement because they've got freedom. They're not being told, at least in my classes, I don't tell them what to write about. I let them pick their own topics because they're gonna be more passionate if they're vested in it. So pick something that like, yeah.
Of course, of course.
Do you have people that are ever like, I don't know what I'm passionate about, I don't know what I'm interested in.
Oh yeah. In fact, in my class? Um, we just did this on Wednesday, um, round-. They've got, in this particular class, I have them write about a social issue and they have to come up with their social issue.
So we do a round robin and it's, you know, what do you see in the world that you, that makes you cringe. And, you know, what I'm getting out of these students, what they are concerned about is just blows my mind. You know, there's the, the usual climate change, poverty, healthcare, which is great cuz then I get them to question and think and look at things from a different perspective.
But in the last three, four semesters, I would say probably about 50% of my female students, their social issue has something to do with the connection between mental illness and social media. Particularly the, um, the fad diets and the push for, um, body dysmorphia.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It's kind of fun. I like to sit back and I let them talk and talk and talk, and then it's like, okay, yeah. Maybe not follow that person. Have you tried following this one, this one, this one. Here's my list.
Wow. And wow, you are in it.
And they're aware, they are so acutely aware of the, this doesn't feel right, this information doesn't seem right, but I don't know how to go about processing it and disputing it, or researching it. So I spend- I spend a lot of time, you know, trust but verify.
I love that. So you're leaning into now, um, not just, critical thinking, but execution of that and how do we actually, then we can think about it, but then how do, what, how do we articulate this?
How do we have discussions, dialogues around it? How do we go and get information? Around it. This is all part of your class?
Yes.
How long is this class?
Uh, we meet twice a week for two hours. For 16 weeks. 16 weeks.
Each class is two hours?
Yep.
Wow. It's in person
Yep.
And it came back after Covid and so like everyone's like in the classroom.
Yes, ma'am.
We're gonna stay with this classroom, or this kind of school idea here. One of the things, and we spoke about this, that becomes problematic is when there is a defined outcome, a grade, and we put more emphasis on the grade, or the most emphasis on the grade, then yes, people are oftentimes, um, compelled?
They're driven to be like, well, I don't really care about the process because everyone just talks about the outcome. What's the grade? What's the grade? What's the grade? At the same time we are in a schooling, in a school system, or in academia, and there are grades. Maybe there aren't grades? How does this work?
How does all that work with what you do?
I do a lot of reflective writing. Here's, here's the reading. Do this, reading about this concept. Now, what do you think? What are your three main takeaways? Can you make the connection between this article and that article? So for, for me, that that's what I wish I would've had as a student to guide me through figuring out the world.
Um, yeah, because the outcomes are important, and the grades are important, and yes, I get these, I'm gonna pick on a particular major. Um, I, I get engineering students that tell me, I don't need to know how to write. I'll have a secretary. I just chuckle and it's like, okay, wow. You think you're gonna walk outta here and have a secretary to proofread your stuff?
God bless you. It's, I focus on the process. All my papers are scaffolded. So,
what does that mean?
It's, um, so with this particular class, we'll just stick with this for clarity. Um, their first paper is a definition paper. They need to define what a social issue is, what their social issue is, how they're connected.
They set the parameters for their research. And then their next paper, they'll do the research and they'll do an annotated bibliography. So now your research is done. So then you build on that, and then the last paper is putting it all together. So we spend a lot of time working on the process.
Got it. Uh, quick question there, the bibliography, where are the sources coming from?
It's 2023. I have no idea what people coming, they're not going and getting like microfilm from the library.
Oh God, no. They laugh. I tell them, I tell them stories about being at the library when it first opened with my roll of nickels and my roll of dimes and praying nobody took the journal cuz I'm gonna be there for a while.
Um, we actually, we are a 21st century research institution. Um, all our databases are digitized. They are databases. They have full access to them, even off campus through a VPN. They can find their articles, download 'em directly to their devices. There are even, um, programs now, RefWorks, EasyBib,, that you plug in the information and it will… and well, it'll do a rough,
that's a great Start.
Yeah. They still have to go in and make sure it's in the proper format. Yeah. But it'll at least start their works cited page. Oh yeah.
That's a great start. Can you talk to me, because you've taught students that did use the library, yes, and you're teaching students now that have databases online. Differences? Problem? Good? Bad?
Um, I think the research I'm getting outta students now is better simply be simply because of access. Those students that are, you know, their, their, their window of productivity is from midnight to 3:00 AM. They have access.
Yeah. Remember those days? I can't do that anymore.
I never could.
Oh, it was me. Oh. I was just like, I'm awake. I do it now. No one's bothering me. Now I'm like, I'll do it every now and again. When I did the ChatGPT episode, I did do an all nighter, and I was like, that's where I'm at. Yeah. Then I'm like, the next three days dead.
No, no. I, I, I will get up. My class, my, my first class starts at 7:30, I'm in my office by 6:00 AM.
You are morning person!
I can get more done between six and seven in the morning than I can the rest of the day.
That's fair. Those are your hours. So Susan, it sounds to me like you are teaching these, these students, one, one, they're super fortunate to be in your class. I hope they realize that.
But you're teaching them thinking, but also communication.
Yes.
And when you were, when you were speaking earlier, you, and speaking about the, your, your trajectory, your background, you spoke about, um, organizational communication. What's that?
To put it in a nutshell, it is the communication end of a business degree. It is looking at, um, a corporate structure or a business structure and what is the flow. And really, really funny. Um, Jill Coleman just did a podcast not too long ago on her corporate structure, and her org chart and I, I had to pull over.
I was laughing so hard cuz it's like it took me right back to school. I could, I could see the chart.
I love it. I love it. I can see it too, cause I just saw it last week at her event. I actually saw it written out , so I can see the chart. Absolutely. So with, with that Susan, cuz you said organizational communication.
I'm sorry to cut you off. You said organizational communication and human communication and interpersonal communication. You got like degrees and stuff in all of this. What is all of this? Explain me. I just, I'm for my own knowledge.
Well, um, organizational communication as I just said is, is the business structure.
So your, your flow from your CEO to your COO, where does HR fit in and all that. Interpersonal communication is one-on-one. This is what we've got going right now. How do you talk and communicate to each other. And there is a huge difference between talking to someone and talking at someone. Oh yeah. Just like there is a difference between listening and hearing.
Oh yes. Oh yes.
Um, so that's, how do you- teaching how do you, um, process and interact with a one-on-one situation. And then small group is 1 to 5 or seven. So your, um, like your Mastermind.
Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm.
And, and that, and it's, it's, and communication and writing are two sides of the same coin. It's all in, it's all in how, how are you getting your message across?
That and I was gonna ask if you could tease out, cuz clearly the things we do, folks with things we're interested in, they're, they're not happenstance, they're not coincidence and everything we've done, we, we build upon, scaffolding, if you will, to borrow Susan's words.
How do you bring this in to what you are teaching today with this thinking and the communication side in your classes?
It's, it's all wrapped in together. The three, the three foundational elements of effective communication. And I use effective rather than good because good is subjective.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
So if our goal is to communicate effectively, either verbally or written, what do we need to pay attention to? And how does that manifest within? So the first thing is the purpose. What is the purpose of this communication? Are you ranting? Are you venting? Are you asking for help? Are you talking just cuz you like the sound of your voice?
Always.
So pur, always pur purpose is, is a big thing. How is that purpose being communicated? Um, who's your audience? Who are you communicating to? Is that the appropriate audience? Is that somebody or a group that needs to hear this? And then the last one is the mode. What avenue are you taking? Is, is texting your mother, you're going to be late for dinner the best way of doing that?
My mind is swirling. I'm like, where do I actually wanna go? I really wanna compare and contrast with you because you've seen both sides. I know folks, this conversation is about ChatGPT, but there's actually a bigger conversation here about the evolution of teaching and, uh, communication and the value of communication, the art of communication.
And there's another discussion about self-worth and, and do I even want to say something? Cuz I think that what I have to say is worthy of being heard or like, I should even say it. There's so much, so many things going on that Susan brings to the table. With the change that you have seen, the evolution we'll say, of students that you have seen.
are you seeing deficits in communication? Are we seeing, I'm gonna put one question at a time. Have you seen deficits in communication that people would immediately be like, it's because of technology and people texting or being, I don't know, people like just blame technology. Have you seen things with that?
Yes and no. I've, I've seen deficits in verbal communication. Students, pe um, that age group, and my kids are that age group, so I, you know…
breaking your headphones,
The, the, the 27 year old just made her own doctor's appointment. That's huge. That's a big deal. Picked up the phone and called. But you know, I've got students that are terrified to talk to people in person, but they communicate very effectively via text or via email.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .
So, you know, in that regard, I've seen that.
Mm-hmm. , um mm-hmm.
So I think that's one key element why I, why face-to-face communication needs to be taught.
Love that. Do you do that? Because this is a writing class, but are we doing that in your class?
Um, we do in my, in my class and we do, um, presentations across the board and all the writing classes.
Um, but remarkably enough, we do not offer communication classes at my institution. Yeah. It just never, never got off. Um, I, I have one, I proposed a, a course it is, um, sitting in, I think, senate faculty curriculum, the powers that be have to approve it.
It's on a desk. Yeah.
It's on somebody's desk.
Yeah, it's on the desk.
Um, but yeah, we're hoping to, um, start a communication major in the next two years.
Susan, talk to me about the, um, overlap and the potential for skill acquisition. If someone comes in with the foundation of, I understand how to communicate written, I understand it's different verbally, but where, how do those two play together?
If, if they can write it, they can speak it. And if you can speak it, you can write it. You just have to get outta your own way.
Ooh, that's big. That is big.
And you, you said it earlier, it's self-worth and, and self-validation. If you've, if you've spent your formative years in school being told to just sit quietly and do your work, it doesn't exactly make you feel safe to talk in class.
That, Susan, if you had a magic wand and you could wave the magic wand and education would be how whatever you want it to be, what would that look like? And we'll say education as relates to writing, communication, written, spoken. We can put 'em all together.
What would that look like? Oh, what would the education system, maybe it wouldn't be a system. Cause then that's a problem. I don't know. I'm giving you, free reign.
It would be,
it would be taught more fluidly, less rigidly. Um, the, the focus should be on the outcome, not the journey.
Explain what does that mean?
Um, uh, it's a silly example, but it's one I use with my students. It seems to resonate. It's, you know, I don't care how you get to Disneyland, just get there by this time, or, I'm not paying your way in.
I don't take any of my students to Disneyland. Believe me, it's, it's too far to drive.
So we're collecting golf balls going to Disney. And when you say, when you say the, the outcome, you're not talking about a grade. Cause people listening will be like, wait, wait, we just said not an outcome. You mean conveying the, the point there?
The, what are you trying to say.
Yeah. I'm I'm saying it's effective skill acquisition that is transferable. The transferability of the skill. Writing is not a one and done adventure. You don't learn how to write a research paper on panda bears in fourth grade, and you're done.
Good forever. Right?
Yeah. Good. I mean, the foundation may, may be there, but you've gotta be able to evolve that skill to write an academic paper or you know, the paper that that meets the rhetorical situation that you're currently in.
Yeah. Makes sense. What's the outcome you're looking for? Can you deliver on that based on the skills that you've learned?
Absolutely.
And, and, and that you have a acquired along the way. So the question then, since this is what we're I brought you on to talk about, is ChatGPT. Again, folks, for those of you as a little reminder, if you haven't tried it out yet, ChatGPT, it is a chat bot. It's a website. There's like a, there's a blank field, singular field, and you can input a command.
It can be a question, you can ask it to do something for you, and there's not, I haven't found, actually, I have found, there, it will process up to a couple thousand, uh, words. So I can put like a transcript in and say, summarize the top 10 points for me from this. Uh, I could ask it to, Hey, summarize this book that I've never read.
Summarize the top 10 points of this book. Or I could say, come up with a title for this episode that's about X, y, z. You can use it for many, many things. The concern that folks have is that students, or one of the concerns is that students will just use this for, let's say, all of their writing and the problems that could come from that.
Where are you at, Susan, with your discussions around this and what, what is your school doing?
Um, well, two, two different questions there. I'll tackle what, what are I, my thoughts and feelings and what am I doing? Um, I actually just did a, an entire lesson on ChatGPT this week with all my students, and some of them knew what it was, some of them didn't.
Wow.
And I pulled it up and we played with it. I actually took, um, a big chunk of my syllabus and put it in there and summarized the top five points of this. And they were amazed at what came out of it. Um, I asked it to write, you know, 250 words on, I don't, I, I don't even remember what the topic was.
Something, yeah, something. And they were amazed at that. And as, and I just kind of let it sit and a student right, you know, kind of said, you know, that's all well and good, but it's robotic. It sounds robotic. I said, absolutely. So if you think that we're not gonna know that you're doing this, you're wrong.
There's also, um, software now. to, to identify it, which came out almost immediately after ChatGPT.
Mm-hmm.
So that's out there. I, I do have some colleagues that, their first round of essays, they had somebody of course, and it was very obvious. So with that student's permission and then anonymity, that was used as a teaching moment.
Yeah, this is what it looks like. It takes the human out of it. It takes the voice out of it. So, and what my institution is doing, they're still trying to come up with policies and procedures for it. So. My views on this are my views, not necessarily my institution. Um, my feelings is, it's a tool.
It's a tool and like totally any tool in the world, it's only as good as you use it, and you can only use it if you understand the basic tenants of it. So it's an instruct, it can be an instructional aid, but it's not a replacement tool.
Definitely not. Susan, I wanna interrupt because you said so many things and I'm like, but I wanna know more because I don't have the words for this.
And I could have asked ChatGPT but I don't know what it's gonna give me. You said it, it doesn't have the voice, right? You, you read it and you're like, this is, could be effective in terms of like, what, doing what I asked it to do, cuz it's a robot, but there is no voice. There's, it's missing what I call like that human factor.
Mm-hmm.
Can you explain to me what is that? What is that human factor- ness, voice?
Well, just like we, we all have our own speech patterns, we own, we all have our inflection and tone of our voice that comes through in our writing, in the words that we choose to use and how we put them together. Um, I'm notorious for grabbing song lyrics and lines from movies and TV shows and interspersing them.
Hence the conform or be cast out, which is one of my favorites. Um, we all have that. That's our personality. Our personality is what makes our writing unique to us. That's what makes Patterson different from Tom Clancy. Now, you know who I read. You know, they can tell the same story, but it's gonna come across differently because it brings in their own unique perspectives and points of view. And our perspectives and our points of view are based on our prior experiences.
Mm-hmm.
That comes through in your writing, that comes through in your conversations. If you have ChatGPT write that, all that's missing.
It's gone.
It's it, it comes out as vanilla.
Yeah. And it's gone. All of it. Yeah. All of it. I love it. I lo- I think that we're gonna see a lot more discussions around what it actually means to be human, because we have all these things being made and, and AI, and we understand like it doesn't, we may not have words for it.
All of us may not have words for it. Cuz we're not all Susan. Uh, but we can feel it, right? It lacks that, that feeling of being alive. It's very flat. It's, it is algorithmic, right? Where it feels like these things were plugged in, in this order because it's effective. And in the goal was convey this point. Cool. It did that, but the goal of sounding like a human and being able to sound like a human because you are bringing in your past experiences, and not saying your past experiences, but the way you express these things, being influenced directly by your past experiences. How did you grow up? Like I grew up in a, a Latin house, right?
So my mom is Puerto Rican, my dad is black. I grew up with my mom. So I've lived with my grandmother for a long time. Everyone speaks, they speak Spanish and it's Puerto Rican, so they speak quickly. When I speak, I speak very quickly, and when I'm writing things out, I tend to write more like that. The sentences tend to be a little bit longer.
I can put commas and stuff in there, but I have noticed this as well when I look at the transcripts for things, and the way that I speak, being directly influenced by my past experiences and not me saying like, oh, I grew up in this house. It's the way it comes out. The, the this, the, the inflection, the intonation, and yes, this is in speech, but that will carry over to written as well.
And we see it's just missing. It's dead.
Mm-hmm.
when you just get it from ChatGPT. Because it, it doesn't exist. It doesn't have those, those not, at least not yet. It doesn't have those past experiences to, to, um, draw from. Do any of the students express, uh, what is the word I wanna, how I wanna phrase this?
Do any of the students express like, sadness about the fact, like, yeah, I could use that, but like, I missed the journey, right? Like, yeah, but like I could do that, but like I…
Um, I don't know if they're there yet, cuz it's so new, but, you know, I played around with it in class and it's like, you know, generate, um, well for this first paper, they need to define what a social issue is. And it's a concept, not a word, if that makes sense.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Oh yes.
So it's, you know, you could go to the dictionary and you could look up social, and you could look up issue, and you can piece together a definition that I've seen forever or let's try this. So I put it in ChatGPT.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Explain to me what a social issue is. And I got a very nice paragraph and I told my students, you can't use this, but use it as a jumping off place.
Yeah. An idea generator. That's where I see the real value of this. Some of my colleagues differ. They would rather their students come in during office hours and I'm having a problem with my paper, can you help me? But these are not the same students that we had 30 years ago. Yeah. They don't talk to people.
That part.
I go to office hours and I sit for two hours and and, and, and play Qwordle.
This is, so I'm gonna say two points and I one of 'em is a question. This sounds like like evolved mimicry, where it is like we can use it and don't write this exactly like this, right? So you said in the beginning, the way we used to teach was the way that things were taught mimicry. Here's the kind of essay, here's the parts, like, do this.
There's still value in that, in saying, Hey, this is an ef -because people, you said earlier about that they were amazed by the outcome. And to me the reason that they were amazed was because they intuitively understood this achieves the outcome.
Mm-hmm.
It conveys the message and it does it succinctly. It does it in a way that maybe they don't love from like the flowery nature of it, but like this completes the, the problem there.
So they can be amazed by that. So I think there's value in being like, Hey, this thing creates the outcome we want. How can we do that? It's not just do that. How can we do that? Why did we, why did it do that? What did it do that made it, you know, so effective at this? And then how can, how can we do that? Like I, I love this.
I'm fascinated by this. Well, the question that I have with this is, you said the students we have now and not the same students we had 30 years ago. Cause they don't like talking to people face to face. I can get that in certain times I'm like, oh, the doorbell rang. I'm not expecting a guest. I'm not going to the doorbell.
I don't know who's there. But do you view that as a problem? And if so, what is the solution for this?
Um, a solution. I think it's a problem in the fact that we live in communities, we live in societies. Yeah. And there's a certain element, a certain level of just manners, social norms, social graces that, um, we don't necessarily see or
mm-hmm.
they're not, um, taught. I, I hate to say they're not taught, cuz I think parents get a bad rap a lot of the time.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Um, but they're not, they're not as evident as they used to be. And part of that is because they're not out interacting in public. You know, I, I grew up, you come home from school, you let yourself in, you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then you go out and you play until the streetlights come on.
We were always outside interacting with people. And the world got a lot scarier, or more importantly, we became aware of how scary the world can be. I think the world's always been scary. We're just more aware of it. So kids come home from school now and they come in, they lock the door, and they're on their, they're on their tablet or they're in front of the tv, and, you know, and not to villainize any of that, because I do understand that for some people that's, that's the best they can.
And I absolutely applaud that. But the kids don't get the interaction. They don't get being out in public and, and so that that face-to-face element
is…
Totally. Totally. I, I, yes, yes. There,. I think there's so many factors. I don't mean to be like, put it on you of like, what's the solution? Right.
There's so many factors that go into this. Like it is just, I talk about this in episode 4 39. It's just expensive to be alive. Yeah. Like it's so expensive to be alive. And so, you know, so going back to the parents discussion, people doing the best they can, which means then certain things become certain ways, and this is the, the best that we can.
What I do like that you said, or I do think of is kind of a solution, or a positive, I'll say that. I see as something positive that you said earlier is if we have the ability to do this written, we can do it verbally. We can learn it, we can, you know, lean into that. And to me, part of that solution then is giving, and it's gonna be at a younger age. Like I don't wanna say, oh, you got adults, you're too far gone. But it's just, it's a lot harder, it's a lot easier if you do things, anything,
mm-hmm
when you're younger. But to me there's such an opportunity to help students at this young age and maybe it is that, yeah, it is written, it is texting, it is communicating in a different way, but still acquiring that skill that then, cuz the pendulum's gonna go back the other way.
Right. You nailed it and I love your answer. It just felt so kind, Susan, that you weren't like, because we're supposed to. You're like, we live in community. All right. This is why this could be a problem. Like this is as humans, we are a social species. And to me this, the pendulum will swing back the other way.
Mm-hmm.
like it's gonna go, it has to go too far, and then something will happen and then it's like, oh. We saw it happen during Covid a bit when we, we were all forced to be a part. And then people were like, can I call though, can I just speak to a person? Cuz that's great. Like we see. So I think it'll come back, but I think in terms of action items, doing what you have said, and teaching writing about writing, and that, what is- what do you think? Your idea matters.
You matter from such a young age, and maybe it is only in a, in one particular mode, but then we can learn how to use it in others. What, what do you think about that?
Well, that's one of the tenets, one of the, the cornerstones of the writing about writing is the transferability of skills. You learn the foundation of of writing.
So it doesn't matter if you're writing your grocery list, your letter to Santa or your lab report. You still have to know what is the purpose, who is the audience, and how does that impact and affect what I say and how I say it. If I'm writing my grocery list and I'm the one going to the store, I can write bread, milk, and eggs.
If my son is going to the store for me, I have to
mm-hmm.
spec- I, I, I have to say what kind of milk, how much milk? Where are the eggs? Because the audience is different.
Yes. You're right. It is a great example. I just imagining, like I imagine, for whatever reason your son is six four in my mind, he is a giant guy and he is walking around the supermarket looking, these eggs?
One, one is the other one, one's six four, and uh, he's a big guy and the other one is five 11 and he looks like a baseball pitcher.
He's okay. He's lanky.
Okay. Yeah. You got the gamut. You got the gamut. What would you say, because you are a parent, what would you say to parents as they navigate this and communication and ChatGPT and technology? Any advice, any words? What are your thoughts?
Technology is here to stay. You can't fight it.
Um, the best that, to me, the best that you can do is have open and honest conversations with your children about your expectations. . And you know what, work smart, not hard dude. If you know, I, I'm of a generation where, um, computers were brand new when I was in grad school.
Wild.
Yeah, I'm that old. Um, and we were told to turn off spellcheck, you could not use spellcheck.
That's cheating. And it's like, dude, I can't spell. I'm, I'm gonna use it. So you may as well, you know, just put part of it in there. And you know, but spell check, it'll only get you so far. You have to get close enough to the word for it to trigger.
Exactly.
So I think technology is here to stay, so let's get ahead of it and let's use it for good and ward off the evil.
That. That. I'm thinking before we wrap this up, I, I do wanna touch briefly on this bigger discussion. Like it is- none of the stuff that you do is happenstance, is coincidence. And you said earlier the fact that the, the type of students that you are working with, that is actually, and the location of the university ,this all matters in this discussion. And if we really strip away the layers, we come to this bottom, this foundation here. Foundational issue of self-worth is. Is it worth me saying something? Am I worth listening to? How do you communicate that with your students? How do you show them, make them feel, make them believe? Yes, you are.
I, I do this assignment every year. It's my favorite one. At the beginning of the semester, I have a little scavenger hunt. They have to find my office, my physical office, and leave a post-it with their favorite quote. I use those quotes as a quick write during class.
And whoever's quote it is, and uh, the questions on the quote are very easy.
What do you think it means and why do you think that? And we share. And I tell 'em, you know, there, there are no wrong answers. It's your interpretation and it's as valid as anybody else's. And invariably, by the third week of doing these, they've all come to realize that they're not so different. Their ideas align quite a bit.
So there's safety in saying this that I think other people already think.
I love that. I love that. I think that, I love this discussion. I was really excited going into it because I, it was like, I know I'm gonna get so much out of it and I'm always excited about, I'm also excited about uncovering certain things and kind of figuring things out. Cuz this is still very much like, I have feelings about it and I'm like, I know that what, what it can do.
But I also know that there's like, you know, downsides of things, but I'm like, there's a bigger issue at play besides like this technology that's come out and how it could change things and the fact that things are changing. And I love that. I think that this discussion for me is really getting at the heart of this in terms of, I believe that people cheat, quote unquote cheat, right?
We will take away, we'll strip away any kind of negative connot connotation there. People cheat when they care more about the outcome than this- a fixed outcome, not a transferrable outcome- a set outcome,
mm-hmm.
like is a zero sum game. You win, you lose. A or F. When they care more about the outcome than they do about the process.
I do believe that the way academia is and the way that our society is, it just champions that. It's like, get the best grade, go to the best school, spend a million dollars, get the best job, be unhappy with your life. Like, it just kind of keeps going, keeps going, keeps going. If we are to kind of just play into that because I think humans, we do care about outcomes.
I think that what is at the heart of this for me and why people wouldn't want to just use ChatGPT to replace is because they care about the outcome. In this case, we do care about the outcome and to me, the outcome that we care about the most, or that what it ties into is, is what I have to say worth listening to. When people feel that way, you don't want someone else saying it for you. You wanna say it?
Mm-hmm.
Maybe you'll get an assist and you're like, I need to refine this. But you want to say it cuz you're like, I wanna get it out there. And in terms of the outcome, but also the process of me getting it out because I understand the things that happened.
But if we don't think that what we have to say is important, if we don't think we're worth listening to, that outcome there, we don't do it. And I think that there, you nailed it in the beginning .Of the students that you're teaching and even asking them like, what do you like, what do you value? And like they're like, I don't know what I like.
I have never been asked. What do you think? I don't know. I've never been asked that. Like to me, this is the bigger discussion that we're looking at folks and the discussion around that of like, Are we able to have that discussion? Right? Are people able to converse and be like, what do you think? What do you think?
I, I love this. I love this, Susan. Like my wheels are, are turning and spinning and in terms of action items, Susan just gave you one: including people. When you include people and you have them do these things and you, it, it allows them to see and feel, yeah, I do matter. I'm not that different. I am part of something.
Right. That's a big thing for humans. I am part of something. Maybe just, maybe it's worth saying something and we can start from there.
Ah, it's so good, Susan. This is, this is so good. Where do you see things going with, uh, if you had to project, right, because you, you said you were in grad school, computers just starting, you're teaching now, ChatGPT is here.
Like you have seen quite an evolution of things. Where would you guess things are headed? How do you foresee that trajectory?
Um, I think things like ChatGPT will transition to more of an instructional aid than the replacement. Um, and I'm hoping that the pendulum swings back a little bit more for, um, teaching the basic foundations.
Foundational elements, um, as techno, as technology advances, so do chances of being hacked and
mm-hmm.
losing things. We had, um, a situation right before finals week where our network went down and students were trying to study for finals and finish papers and the network was gone. So it's, you know, here's a piece of paper and a pencil.
That's it. You know, we'll, old school it . Um, thankfully it was only down for a couple days, but still, you know, it brings that up and, yeah.
Circle back around to something you, you said a few minutes ago about, you know, when we're so focused on the letter grade that we lose the process and people are afraid of ChatGPT, because oh my gosh, they're gonna cheat, you know, back in the early days, that's why people joined Greeks.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
There was always a filing cabinet in somebody's basement. Basement that had exactly the papers.
They had the test already. It was already there.
And you know, it, anybody who wants to cheat bad enough is gonna find a way. Yeah. So it's, you know, don't, yeah. Don't cut everybody else off because one person did something
That. That's it. They're gonna find it. Like you nailed it. They're gonna find a way regardless.
Oh yeah.
Cause they don't care about that thing. They care about something else and they, they won't cheat at that. Maybe they won't cheat at that other thing. Maybe they will. I don't know, personality trait, but they're gonna do it anyway. So to take away this tool, and I love that you keep using that as the word cuz it is. It's exactly that. It's a tool. I do not believe you'll get replaced by ChatGPT or AI. Not yet anyway. You'll get replaced by somebody using ChatGPT and AI. It's very different. Very, very different.
This is so, so, so good. Susan, I'm cognizant at the time and I know you gotta pick up the little ones as well. Before I let you go, I ask all the guests one question, very simple question and you can say none if you want or nothing. Uh, but the question is, is there anything else that you would like to leave the people with?
Ooh,
No rush either.
No rush. We can, we've got all the time in the world.
Got time. I'll just edit it out. If it's a long, it's fine.
Um, uh, you know, it's just, be kind to people. You don't know what somebody else is going through or has been through. And just take a breath count to 10 multiple times if you need to, or walk away.
You have 100% control over your actions.
Words of wisdom. Words of wisdom, and it ties into, I wrote them down, those three parts of effective communication: purpose, audience, mode. Yep. That big one. The second one, audience. You don't actually know cause you don't know what they're going through. You don't know where things are at, but you know what will always be received well, just be kind.
Just be kind
Effective. Just be kind. I love that. I love that. Susan, this has been amazing. It's always refreshing to speak, communicate with different people and new people and uh, I love that we're using the technology side of it, right? Like I get to be on the camera. You're where you are, I'm o over here, and we get to have such an awesome discussion and then share it with what I like to think is the world.
It's not, but I like to think of it as a world. Uh, are you open to folks connecting with you on Instagram?
Sure.
You wanna share that with us and we'll put it in the show notes as well.
Oh, what is my Instagram? I think it's…
it's got some letters, but they're not your full name.
Oh, no, that's my, my email. That's how bad I am. This is how bad I am with technology.
This makes me happy.
Oh God, that's too funny. It's SueFlyr. Right. S U E F L Y R.
Amazing.
And that's – that's a nod to my happy place. I'm a swimmer by trade. I was a butterflyer.
Are you swimming?
Fly, fly. I swam fly.
See the confusion?
Yeah.
I was like, that's flying Susan.
Audience.
It it's not swimming.
No, no. I, I sw, I'm a, I'm a butterflyer. I swim butterfly so that's…
damn. Alright.
Sueflyr.
Alright. Muscles got it. You can connect with Sue over at in over on Instagram at sue flyer F L Y R. We'll put that in the show notes.
Susan. Thank you. This was incredible. It got the wheels turning and thinking about the bigger questions and things that I didn't know if they were gonna come up, but you know, after speaking to you for five minutes, I was like, not surprised that they came up. So thank you for taking the time. Thank you for reaching out on Instagram.
You're always so kind there. Uh, and just thank you for all that you do. Like this is, this is a big deal.
Oh, well thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been a pleasure.
This is awesome. You're so welcome. You folks listening, thank you. We know you could have been doing anything and you chose to listen to us, and for that, we are both endlessly appreciative.
Today's ask, today's call to action: if you liked this episode, if you loved this episode, if you're picking up what we're putting down, do me a solid and share it with somebody who you think might enjoy it. That's it. All righty. Gonna wrap it up there. Until next time, friends, Maestro out.
Watch this episode on YouTube!
Connect with Susan on Insta: @sueflyr
MOTM #439: Maximizing Productivity with ChatGPT: How AI Will Transform Online Business
Catch me on the socials: Instagram | YouTube | Twitter | TikTok | Facebook