[Transcript starts at 1:23]
Hello, hello, hello my podcast people and thank you for joining me for yet another episode of my favorite podcast. So in today's episode we're gonna be talking about what to do when people default on their payment. I said playment- their payment plans. This question came in from one of my Insta homies, Mafia homies, Legacy homies.
Uh, she's just a dope homie. Uh, and I, I like this question a lot. I actually realized when I sat down to record this, that I had far more to say about this topic than I thought. I was like, oh, this should be a pretty, you know, straightforward one. And then I was like, oh wait, it's a bit longer than I thought. So stoked to dive into that.
Before we do, uh, just a little recap. I don't wanna recap, just a little touching base with last week's episodes because I loved recording them so much. Hopefully you enjoyed them. I don't know if you've enjoyed them because, uh, the day that I record this is Monday and that's the day at the first of those episodes dropped.
So it's not like enough time to get the feedback. Um, I got a little bit. And so far so good. So hopefully you enjoyed those episodes. They were, I think, different than my, my typical ones. If you haven't checked them out, would love if you go check them out. Episode 4 64 and 4 63. Um, but it was just really, really fun to, to record those and wear the cowboy hat. I don't have it on today. I actually got a haircut. If you're watching this on YouTube, you see. Got the ol' day haircut going on. It's actually a little bit messed at the top, but you can't really see that as much. Uh, but the haircut itself is good. It's just gotta like work on combing it.
Um, but today it's a beautiful day. The sun is out, it's windy AF. I was gonna say it's windy as Kansas, but like, I actually don't know if that's the windiest because I watched these like weather shows. I was watching, what is it, storm. Uh, Earth Storm is the most recent thing I've been watching and they be having tornadoes all over.
So I don't wanna say that Kansas is, or the most windy or and has tornadoes or Oklahoma. I don't know either way, it's windy AF here, but at least it's sunny and California seems to be acting right. I got a little bit of a red nose. If you're watching, you can also see that. Because it was sunny yesterday. I played volleyball for most of the morning, all the morning and got a little bit of sun, and I am not mad about that.
So the episode, let's hop in. The specific question that, uh, my homie asked was dealing with people who default on their payment plans from the relating side of things not legal. For those of you that are new to the podcast, or if you don't remember this term or this concept of relating, was first introduced to me by James Olivia Chu Hillman.
They are in @inquisitive_human on epi on episode. Wow. On Instagram. And I brought them on for episode 2 28 and 2 98. Uh, so if you wanna go check those out, you can. Thank you, Courtney. The concept here, if I'm gonna summarize it, is honoring this other person's humanity and your own right. We are looking to relate with this person, not relate to them, relate with this person.
When I sat down to outline this episode, I thought that I was like, I'm gonna, you know, breeze through this. It should be pretty straightforward, but, it was not. It actually took me a lot longer than I thought it would. Mainly cause I wanna make sure that, uh, I'm being clear with what I'm saying and also kind of processing the things that I think about this topic because it's kinda like, you know it, but like, let me put words to it and then let me run it through my own filters of like, does that make sense?
Does that hold up? Um, so I'm actually excited to, to lay this out. The main concept or the main issue here that I, I think we're actually discussing is not actually how to deal with defaulted payments. Of note, I switched that language there and I think that it's important and it's helpful. We are dealing with the payment, not the actual person.
And the person who asked this, they know that, um, this is just like, ya know, they asked it very quickly. Um, but I think it's important to say, right? Cause the original question is dealing with people who default on their payment plans. I wanna first switch the language there to say, Or remind you or highlight that we are dealing with the payment, not the person.
I think that to get to the answer for this and how do we relate with this person, is actually to start off by identifying and understanding why we're offering payment plans in the first place, and then from there how we wanna be using them, right? So that we are very intentional with how we implement them.
In my opinion payment plans have historically been used as a tactic to increase revenue. I believe that their inherent purpose is transactional, not relational, which I think is what brings some of the difficulty here, and this is why I love this question. Cause it's like really sit- it makes you sit and be like, oh wait a minute.
Let me think about this. Right? Again, I think that payment plans have historically been used as a tactic to increase revenue, not to help people out. They're like, we wanna make more money. Their inherent purpose is transactional not relational. I think the question that, you know, originally prompted this idea of payment plans was how can we get people to buy this thing, namely those people who want it but can't afford it. We can do a payment plan, we can do kind of, you know, layaway. I think the best example of this is looking at car payments, right? And we can see very easily how even if it is a, you know, a kind idea at heart, that it can very easily be flipped to be quite predatory.
Because the concept here becomes, oh, you can't pay for it outright. Okay, let's split it up into payments. But the predatory part is you're going to pay a lot more. Right? I think it's actually kind of twofold, predatory, in that not only are you going to be paying a lot more, but oftentimes you're doing this payment, you're making payments on a depreciating asset, or it becomes a liability, right?
And suddenly people will owe $30,000 on a car that is only worth 2000. That is problematic, right? I actually followed this guy, a @cardealershipguy, something like that, on Twitter, and it's just fun for me. I think I've spoken about it in a past episode, but it's fun to just see what's going on in the, the auto industry and sales and things like that.
And we see these predatory tech predatory techniques, these predatory tactics, he speaks about them, and how suddenly you'll have like a 72 month car loan and a car payment, and you're like, wait, what? And they're 96 months. Like these really long payments because what they're looking to do is really capitalize on or highlight the, the kind of cash flow side of things for these customers and be like, well, I understand that you don't have cash reserves, you don't have the money you need to be able to spend in one lump sum, but you can spread it out over a zillion months.
We're also gonna put, you know, a ton of interest on that, but the number you're paying each month you can handle. And so suddenly it feels like a good deal to that person. And it's actually quite predatory. As I'm saying this. Perhaps you're thinking about, fuck that is school loans. And I think that, yes. S- you know, higher education is, is largely a kind of scheme, especially with it just costs too much.
But the one redeeming factor maybe, is that in certain circumstances you're not paying for a truly depreciating asset. Right? Your education, ideally is something that, in perhaps, maybe, depending what you got, you can leverage it to make more money. I know that's a certain, that's the situation that I'm in.
I still think that, you know, grad, my grad school should not have cost as much as it does, but it is something that allowed me, that did open up doors and has allowed me to create a business that I don't think otherwise I've been, I would've been able to do or wouldn't have been able to do it in the timeframe or as these are like, there are benefits to me or rather, in my opinion, for that.
Either way, this is just an example of how, um, this kind of payment plan option can be very easily made into something that is quite, quite predatory. In the online business space, we see it used to increase signups. And I'm not saying this just like as a ne negative thing, like it's always bad. I'm just laying out there how we see it used so that we can think about how are we using it and do we wanna keep, continue to use it in that way or do we wanna change things?
That's what's ultimately gonna make it easier to relate with the person who is purchasing that payment plan should you decide to offer payment plan.
So tactically in the online space we see it used to increase signups. Um, typically you'll see an upcharge with this. Like a service charge. And it's justified by saying, okay, well if you wanna spread the payments out over 12 months, I'm taking on the risk as the um, provider here.
Which means that there's processing fees, cuz there are increased fees cuz it's, you know, 12 transactions instead of one. There's administration fees associated with it, failed payments, um, the actual like software to do it. Oftentimes this is like a 20% upcharge, which I think is more than the actual, you know, if we do the exact math there. But that's what we typically see.
The flip side of this is that you can kind of use it as that, use it as price anchoring, and that can encourage people to pay in full, right? Where it's like, Hey, if you pay in full, you save 20% as opposed to paying for it over time. I, I'm thinking about, you know, I just paid for Ramit's course, it was like 2000 bucks and if you pay for it in like 12 installations, it's like $2,500.
I dunno, something like that. But either way it's a price anchoring, you know, it's a, it's a, you know, kind of pricing psychology thing to help encourage people to pay at once. As I, you know, sit and think about payment plans, I personally cannot help but wonder if it's, if they ultimately encourage, poor financial decisions more than they actually help poor people out. Which is oftentimes what the argument becomes of like giving access to, to lower income.
And it's an interesting argument, and I don't necessarily agree with it. I think that people are putting words in other people's mouths and just being like, what's a demographic that we can use to, you know, gain sympathy and, and make our decisions seem good or make their decision seem bad? And they just like, take this like marginalized, seemingly marginalized, uh, community.
I can't help but wonder if payment plans, if you think about from the car perspective, like does it encourage, do they encourage people who cannot afford things to buy these things and does it do more of that then it actually, you know, gives access and helps people who can't afford a lump sum, but actually, you know, can financially do this.
Or it's like, not financial devastation to do this thing like, I don't know. And if you're doing the car analogy or car example, I think it's the former that it just encourages poor financial decisions across the board. And it's not just for poor people, quote unquote poor people. Right. This is again, why I really like following that, um, car dealership guy.
He's talking about people that are like, you know, they have car payments on G wagons and these are a lot of realtors that like, you know, had a big influx of money during covid and then, you know, put, took, took out these, these car payments and now these have car notes that, that are like, you know, $1,800 a month and something stupid. And they're upside down on them.
Ramit talks about this as it relates to his products and I really like this, really respect it that he's like, I don't want you going into credit card debt to take this course. If you have credit card debt, do not buy this course. And I think that's an awesome way to start off that relating and being like, Hey, let me outline all of this and show like who this is for and my intent.
And you know, I don't want you to go into debt over this thing. I don't want you to create problems for yourself so that you can put money in my pocket, like that's not, that's not it. Yes, there is the autonomy piece for sure, which is part of relating and, you know, allowing people to make their own decisions. But I, I think they should be informed decisions and you should be putting everything out there and explaining the scenarios and, and, you know, giving your own two pennies on things.
And I think that there is, you know, we can utilize ethical marketing here by clearly stating the guidelines around like, Hey, if you have this debt, you should not be buying this. If you, if this is your current circumstance, this is not gonna be that beneficial for you. This thing that I have that is beneficial in general is not gonna be that helpful for you.
It may actually cause more problems and you should wait until you're in this situation. Yes, at the end of the day, they can make their own decisions, but it's an informed decision. Um, I, I don't think it's, uh, I think that you will always have some people that default on things, but I think the goal is to clearly have the lowest number of P people possible doing this and that's going to come from kind of creating an environment where people are informed, where you're not creating, you know, manufactured urgency and scarcity that's, that's unethical and just, you know, looking to just get a transaction from these people. So to me, the answer of how to deal with default defaulted payments rest largely in understanding why you're offering these payment plans in the first place and then being very intentional with how you use them.
And to me, I think this will come from a place of relating, right? We're thinking about this intentionality with it. It's cuz hey, I'm going to be interacting with a human. I'm going to be ultimately having a transaction with another human and let me place their humanity at the forefront.
So to get a little bit more tactical with this three parts here. Number one: Should you offer payment plans? This is 100% up to you. Again, I'm not sure that the discussion around it needs to be the big deal that people are making it out to be.
Mainly because it feels like the focus that people who are against it are using is on saving poor people instead of just like not being greedy and predatory. Like, Hey, just be a good person. As opposed to like, let me, instead of just saying that, let me kind of like manufacture a scenario in which this person's now a savior and a hero so that they don't do this thing. And I'm like, just don't fucking do that. Right?
Is your intention to just solely make money and you don't care about what happens to the other person? That's bad. The end. Period. All right? So whether or not you, you use payment plans 100% up to you. And as with everything that in general and things that I speak about, number one, know why you're doing it.
And then, or identify why you're doing it. Write it down if you need, and then ask yourself, am I okay with this reasoning? If yes, then move on. That's it. I think this speaks to the- starts to speak to that relating piece cuz you are considering the other person, you know, the person on the side, the person on the other side of that transaction.
As it relates to payment plans, for me it's largely based on the price point and the duration. The main thing for me is that I do not want payments to extend beyond the duration of the program. This is not necessarily a standard practice like people, plenty of people do this where it extends past the duration of the program, especially if it's a DIY or self-paced, you know, program.
Then yeah, it's going to extend past that. I personally don't like dealing with that, so I don't do that. Um, uh, as it relates to the price point, that's gonna be subjective and you get to pick a number, right? Meaning some people will be like, okay, well if it's under X amount, well then that's cheap to me, and so I'm not gonna offer payment plan. That will always be subjective, okay?
What I will say with this though is that people do tend to value things more when they pay for them, and subsequently, the more that they pay for them, the more they value it. It's fucked up, but it's true. What I wanna take from that reality is that I want you to avoid a race to the bottom. Meaning I've seen people try to do payment plans where it's like 12, 12 payments of $9 and I'm like, what?
That person's gonna stop paying for this thing that's delivered one time? Like that doesn't make sense. There's a difference between that and like, Hey, hey, this is a monthly membership that's $10 and it's recurring payment. Right? There is a difference there. So if it's like, Hey, here's a six week course, and first of all, it's like super cheap, you know, in my opinion, super cheap. Something that's like, you know, a hundred bucks and then you're like, oh, you can spread it out over 10 months. And I'm like, wait, that doesn't make sense. It becomes a race to the bottom, and I want you to avoid that because that is not financially feasible or sustainable for a business, right?
So from my own personal offerings, uh, all right. I have my six week Instagram intensive course. I do not offer payment plans for that. It's 5 97. It's a one-time payment. This statement may get me in trouble, but you know, I heard it from Danny Matta. I threw him under the bus. I, I heard it from Danny, but I actually believe it, that hey you, if you want a payment plan, it's called your credit card.
I get it. That requires people have a credit card, and we're gonna come to the- later in the episode some solutions here. I don't wanna chase people at all. I put the price on everything so that if people wanna save up. They can absolutely do that. I offer it twice a year so if they wanna, you know, take it later because they're like, Hey, I can't afford it right now.
Amazing. You know, the price, you know when it's gonna be offered again, you can take it then. So for my six week Intensive, I don't offer the payment plans cuz, you know, offering two monthly payment plans would make it weird in terms of like the, the getting the payment from it, making sure it's at the first of the month and like to me it's not worth the headache.
Okay. For Legacy, the program that I run with, Jill, we, we do offer a payment plan. It's $7,500 for that program and it's six months, right? So with that, people can pay monthly and I actually do like when people pay monthly cuz it feels more like recurring revenue. So that's nice. It's nice for the financials, but either way I'd be fine because y'all know that I'm like heavy on the financials.
I use Profit First, um, for my financial system I work with Sandi, um, for my as my accountant. She's @fitmoneycoach, and so I'm not gonna like get this lump sum and then spend it all. Um, but it can feel nicer for you folks out there that if you're delivering an ongoing service, it can feel nicer just to get paid as you go.
Um, it's your choice. We do have a 10% charge added to that. That's kind of where Jill and I settled, um, where it's like, you know, standard may be 20%. And I was like, I don't feel good offering that. And she was like, yeah, I know. So we did less. And that kind of factoring in how much it costs for admin fees and the actual software, um, and the additional, um, actual like payment, uh, transaction fees, right. The goal in us having the payment plan is not to attract more people, though. It's to make it easier for the folks who are actually qualified and we know can pay for this thing. And if they wanna spread it out, then that is totally fine. Additionally, Legacy we offer it- it's a small group program. It's 20 to 30 people. It's not hundreds of people. And everyone that's in that joins is pretty much a hot lead or they're in the ecosystem. We know them. And so there's a lot of high trust there. So there's already this inherent relating, it's not coming from a purely transactional place. It's, in my opinion, relational first and then there is a transaction.
Best practices for implementing, implementing, oh my goodness, a payment plan. Few points here: number one, I really like to keep it within the duration of the program or the service that's being delivered. I understand that is very tough if, if it's a self-paced offer, I get it.
If, for me, in my opinion, if you can keep it within the confines of the the program, that's your best bet. Uh, second point here, consider adding only the cost of the transaction fees. You know, the fees, uh, may be associated with the admin side of it and the, um, software that's required in order to do this. Have very clear terms of service so that people know, right, this is when it's gonna be taken out.
This is when, this is when you're gonna be charged. Here's the cancellation policy if you have anything like that. Here's the refund policy if you have something like that. Let them know and make it clear. Make them like sign off on these things.
Next point, which I think Ramit does a really good job and I mentioned earlier, is lead with your values and the things that you value.
If you're talking about financial safety and security and integrity, lead with that, right? Continuously state it so that the people that are coming to your ecosystem know what you're about and they believe the things that you're saying. I, I think it's, you know, the phenomenal that it's just part of the things.
It's like a recurring statement and comment for him and, and it's in his content everywhere. And can people choose to be in debt and go and buy this thing? For sure. But I think that he's doing a great job of really stating the kind of parameters around it and the things that he values and the things that he hopes his audience would, would listen to and, and lean in- lean into.
Manage expectations with this offer. So yes, you can offer lots of offering there. Offering the offers and offers. Manage expectations with this service, this product, this offer. You can have a payment plan, but as it relates to your actual marketing, don't make this thing, this thing you're offering seem like it's an immediate game changer.
Like people have to do this right now or they're gonna die. I understand that that is actually part of advertising and marketing and copywriting language for many people. I think that that can be problematic. When you sell something like this is the be all, end all. You have to do it right now or you're gonna die, then people are like, I will give you my child.
So at least if you're gonna do that, balance it out with, Hey, do not go into debt for this thing. Do not, you know, none of the pressure that we also see in the online business space where people are like, it's only $10,000. Only. Don't say only. Right. And two, we see these coaches that are just like, if you wanted it, you would pay it, and you gotta manifest it and you gotta believe, like, don't do that.
Do that shit. Manage expectations with what your offer is and what you can realistically promise as an outcome for this and the timeframe, you can promise that outcome. Alright? Be transparent with all the things around it. And then I believe that helps attract a buyer that's more informed and can make a better decision about whether or not a payment plan is right for them.
And they won't default on it cuz one, they're going in with managed expectations, they're going in with information. And two, I think there's more of a trust factor there between you and that person.
Next point here is to qualify your buyers. You can only do so much with this, but if it's a higher ticket item, you know, and it's, and it's, uh, like a live thing that you're running, you can have, you can have applications, you can do interviews. You can ask people how much they're currently making, what's their revenue like. We do that for Legacy. We can see how much people made last year. We need more talk about money, we need more open talk about money. But you can see like, hey, this person, I know they can't afford it.
This is what they're making. This is kind of how many clients they have. This is going to be a stretch for them. It's gonna put 'em in a desperate position. It's gonna put 'em in a, a position where they start having urgency and, and making bad decisions. And no, this is not right for them. And I'm, we will not offer this to them.
I'm thinking about Dr. Sean Pastuch actually with this. Cause I know that he will not sell things to certain people. He's like, Hey, no, this is not, this is not good. I understand that there are certain situations, and again, there's the autonomy piece there, and people can go and make money in order to fund this thing.
I get it. But my point here being qualify your buyers, it's not just about the transaction. The whole question here was about relating the right, the relating side of it. And I think that this speaks to first relating with the human on on the other side of the transaction and then having the transaction.
Lastly within this is having offers in other price ranges. I speak about this all the time. If you want the freebie, it's my, my free ebook. It's called the Value Ladder, and it's just a little ebook that teaches you different ways to stratify or diversify your offerings. I don't do a sliding scale because I don't wanna do one, but to me, my solution to this is I have higher and lower priced items, but people can still get solutions and wins from those things. It's not like, oh, the only way you can get a solution is if you pay me a zillion dollars. Fuck, you could go on Instagram and start a business and run a successful business with the things that I put on there.
You could be in the mafia for $37 a month and get group coaching and, and a self-paced approach to starting and running an online business and you know, being a content creator. Or you could, if you really want to focus and have my eyes in a smaller group, cool. Then you can do a 5 97 program, which is my Instagram Intensive, or if you wanna do a one-on-one call where it's just my time, cool.
Then it's 400 bucks for an hour. Or if you want both me and Jill in a very small group where you get one-on-one, you have Voxer access to us, you also have a group of other people, 20 to 30 other people who are going through the same things and they're a bit more advanced, right? They're in that intermediate plus. Cool. Then you can pay $7,500 for that.
But we see that I don't need to offer a discount on these other things cause I'm like, here's something that meets your price point, and I promise you it's gonna be fucking banging and it's gonna be better than other, other people's shit. I already promised you that. I will promise you that.
Right? So I think that that is a very good solution. Uh, if you're like, ah, I don't know about payment plans, things like that, or, um, you know, sliding scales. Cool. Then create a different offer at a lower price point that doesn't have as much, you know, touch points with you. It doesn't have as much one-on-one with you, but people still get solutions.
All right. Lastly, let's kind of like answer the specific question. How do we actually handle the defaulted payments? What do we do, right? Because before, it's kind of like the preventative side of things. Creating that environment where people hopefully don't want to, um, default. How do we handle it? Cuz it's going to happen.
Well, number one, I think we reach out and you ask what's up. Ask them if something else would be a better option for them. Um, and also state your side to things. Again, we're relating with them. You are bringing your humanity and your humanness to the conversation as well. It's not that it's not, you know, the customer's always right.
In terms of how many times to reach out, I don't know, two times, three times. Like if you don't, if you reach out and you don't hear back, I would say after the second time or the third time you write to them and you're like, Hey, I haven't heard back from you and I'm canceling whatever, I'm revoking access.
Like end it. If you wanna go and put in the fucking work to like be litigious, like that just sounds like more time and more money than the product that you're actually selling, right? So I personally would be like, all right, done, canceling revoking access. And then as it relates to future transactions, that's gonna be up to you, right?
It's your decision. But you know, being mi mindful about it and being kind about it, but I wouldn't fault you if you wanted to not work with them again. Right? And you're like, you know, this person that I'm, I'm done relating with this person, I'm done, you know, having transactions with this person, especially if they ghosted you, right. Your humanity matters as well.
What you want, your piece matters as well. So we have reaching out, we have, okay, they're not writing back. We're reaching out, saying, what's up? Can I help? Is there something that fits better? That's relating. From there, we don't hear from them. Okay. Then you just cut it off and you're like I'm gonna cancel everything.
I'm gonna revoke the access. If you wanna speak about future things, you can, but then that decision also has to be made, is how do you wanna deal with this person and, and relate with this person in the future.
So, to wrap it up, discussing the relational side or the relating side of dealing with failed, um, or defaulted payments, um, from payment plans, I think that it's very tough to go from transactional to relational. I think historically payment plans are, were implemented from a transact for a trans for transactional reasons. I do believe that it's easier to go from relational and then add in a transaction. So this is my whole schtick of attracting an audience that wants to be there. Attracting an audience that knows your values and knows you, and that you also know them.
This clearly becomes less possible, less feasible with a massive audience. But the question that we had for this episode was handling things from the relational side, and you know, you're not, likely not gonna relate in the same way with a massive audience, that's likely going to be more transactional. You can do the best you can to lead with your values and really show you know who you are and how you are. But we have to understand that as the audience grows and as you get more customers, those defaults are probably going, they're going to increase.
Ideally, the, ideally the percentage hopefully stays the same, only goes up a little bit, but the absolute number would go up because the number of sales has go, has gone up.
This approach that starts off relational is slower and perhaps ultimately smaller. Right? This may put a cap on it. I personally am okay with this.
I don't want the headache of dealing with that other shit. I don't want the addict of having to track people down and go and get payments and things like that. So I'm fine with it growing smaller, being smaller, or growing slower. This is not to say that, you know, it's kind of self-fulfilling prophecy or self-limiting belief of like, it has only, can only be small if you're gonna relate it has to be small. I'm not, I don't wanna say that. Um, but the reality is if you're really looking to have like deeper relationships with people and really relate with every, every person, you, it doesn't scale, right? It doesn't scale infinitely.
Yes, ideally they tell their friends and people like us do things like this. Their friends are, you know, cool like them. They bring in good people. But you have to understand like a smaller audience is not the same as a bigger audience, right? So when it comes to dealing with these defaulted payments, I do believe the answer, as with most things, is prevention. But just like with injury, we as humans simply don't care about prevention.
Unless it's preventing recurrence, right? Once it happens, and I'm like, oh shit, like, let me think about this. So when it happens, because it will happen, learn from it. We reach out to the person and communicate, relate with them. We assess our own approaches in general into business, and we ask, why do we have a payment plan in the first place and what can we do to make the whole thing, the whole process more relational?
All right. That's all I got for you. Shout out to the homie for asking this question. As always, I love hearing from you, and it just, it makes the podcast even more fun. MOAR, a bigger, better, better way to spell more. So if you got a question, if you got a request for a podcast episode, shoot me a DM @themovementmaestro.
Shoot me a text, 3 1 0 7 3 7 2 3 4 5. Drop a comment below if you're on YouTube, and I'd be more than happy to to dive in. And that's it. Until next time, friends, Maestro out.
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