[Transcript starts at 2:08]
Maestro: Hello, hello, hello, my podcast people and thank you for joining me for yet another episode of my favorite podcast. We got a guest in the house with us today and she has not been here since October 14th, 2019. It's very funny when you record podcasts, you kind of think, Oh, I just had that person on. And suddenly it was like, Oh, that was like almost four years ago.
I brought this incredible human on four plus, four years ago to nerd out. And I was like, you know what? My audience is still full of nerds, still full of movement geeks. And I want to bring her back on because not only does she have that aspect, she's got the business slant. And I was like, you know what?
Let's come back on and have a chat today. I have with me, my good friend co founder of the neuro studio and only Meg Koppele Duffy.
Welcome back, friend. I was trying to I was trying to remember how your dad introduces you, and I was like, fuck, I can't remember.
Meg: He says… Every time I call him, is this the famous Meghann Koppele Duffy? And I'm like, it's still me, dad. Seriously, are we still doing this? Like, and then my mom answers the phone.
Who's this? Who calls you mom?
Maestro: This is why I love her, folks. She's real. Anytime we talk, it just goes on and goes on and goes on. She's one of my favorite people because she's also from the best state, not California, the East Coast best. The right coast. That's it. Dirty Jersey, dirty, dirty Jersey. So Meg, when we, when we first hopped on before the episode started, uh, I was like, yo, you were on in October 14th, 2019.
And you were like, I'd like to say that I've grown a lot since then, but I'm probably the same.
Meg: I mean, in business, in, you know, my process and my expertise. Yes. You know, personally, still that bitch.
Maestro: Still, still that bitch, still eating the gluten free Oreos. I don't know about that, but I still love you.
Meg: So, well, I do have celiac and as celiac as gluten free cookies go. The gluten free Oreos are the only edible ones.
All the other cookies get stuck in your teeth. It's a whole process. So if anybody else has celiac gluten free, but you have to do double stuffed, you're going to have to floss after, but it will be worth it.
Maestro: Perfect amount of frosting. So for anyone that wants the full background on Meghann, we will link episode one 50.
Thank you, Courtney. But Meg, you want to do us a solid and do like a little brief overview of kind of who you are. And then I want us to jump right into kind of your approach. Cause today we're being movement nerds.
Meg: Yeah, so real quick background, I have my master's degree in Applied Physiology. I've been a Pilates teacher and a movement professional for, I think it's like 22 years now.
I started Pilates by chance because I was going to college to do sports specific training. And unfortunately at the time, in some of the internships, um, being a woman, it didn't work in my favor where I either would get hit on or ignored. And I said to myself, do I want to show up every day to work proving I'm competent?
I had more to say. So my thoughts are, let me get in through the back door, kind of go in that way and work with athletes in that way. But what I realized in owning a Pilates studio in Hoboken, New Jersey for many years, I had one neuro client. Somebody called me, a PT friend of mine, said, hey Meghann, do you know how to work with MS?
And I said, of course I do. I was 24, you know, I had the ego the size of this, this square, and I had to Google, What is MS? So, I always share that story because, you know, you and I talk about superhero origin stories, like how did we get here? I literally Googled what is MS. So I've traveled the world teaching my methods, especially for MS. And it started with the Google. So it's kind of like a little bit of lesson. It doesn't have to be this deep, profound story of why you're where you're at. So fast forward after Googling it, there was like nothing. It was like stretching. Okay, so that kind of started the neuro approach again. We talked about in an episode one.
I don't want to bore the fans. I always say, I'll tell you more about you myself over a drink. But what was really profound to me is learning styles and different brains and neurodivergent and neurotypical brains. And I was lucky in school. I think you were the same. I tested really well. I'm an audit- I really learned through auditory.
Um, I was good in lectures. I take in stuff. I did a post yesterday about like, I still have textbooks in plastic. Yeah. So I was lucky that I did well in school. So, you know, you, you got labeled smart and uh, good stuff. Totally. But what I've seen with clients, my husband, friends, is learning is not always catered to you it's kind of catered to what the teacher likes to do not surprising. I love to lecture so I love to learn. Yeah, right. Have you ever done this where you're like lecturing and you're like, holy shit. That was really good? You know, it's like comes out naturally I'm, like, oh i've never said it like that before.
Did someone get that? So for me looking at it What'd you say? Yeah, write that down, write that down, write that down. But coming from a neuro approach is I'm realizing we're missing the boat on so many people. So my methods developed with people with neurological conditions, but what I always say is everybody's a neuro client.
So it's not just looking at learning styles, it's looking at the sensory environment, what speaks to them. Bringing all this information in and just saying it. That's a lot of shit. Overwhelming. Listen, there's different methods that people use and muscle testing, whatever works for you. But I wanted to create a way where my students could kind of assess every movement on the go. I don't like to assess things and do something then assess it again that works for so many people It does not work for my brain.
So that's kind of where the four quadrant stability model came in. Still not the sexiest name. We were, we talked about this, uh, maestro, but it is what it is. It's not sexy. It's the basics.
Maestro: This, this right here, can we back it up for one second? So
Meg: Why did I say a lot in that spiel? Like I threw a lot of shit against the wall.
Maestro: We're from the same, we're cut from the same cloth. I'm like, we get along. Give it to me. Again, for you folks listening. This is why I brought Meghann because I know that for the majority of you, this audience started as, you know, following The Movement Maestro and like kind of the movement journeys and things like that and that side of things.
And so brought her on to get back into that because I know that that still interests people. And for me, I want to expose people to as many different approaches. Yes, I'm biased. So it's a person that I agree with, but as many different approaches that I agree with as possible so that you have many tools at your disposal so that you can also choose how you want to be going about things, right?
My whole stick, build your best life. And the way you're going to do that is by having options. So in getting to work with Meghann and actually get treated by Meghann and getting exposed to this, I was like, Hey, let's open people's eyes. Let's, let's expose them to this approach as well. You know, I brought, um, Anna Hartman on the podcast.
I've had Jill Miller on the podcast and we're looking at these different approaches to things. And I was like, I want to bring Meghann back on and talk about this because, also, this, we're going to, I'm going to say a neuro approach, it is still very sexy. Right. Where when I was treating people were starting to realize that pain was the big thing and realizing that pain is an experience and like, yes, starting to view every client as a neuro client, but Meghann has a different experience with that and treating what we would traditionally consider to be a neurological patient and then saying, Hey, how does this, uh, how does this tie into, how does this work for the general population? And, oh, also like, how can my students use this? And I was, as she's explaining these things to me, I'm like, yes, I want more people to be hearing this because if I was still treating, this is something that I would want to want to learn. So one of the things you said in there was that kind of the test and then, um, have them do the thing and then kind of we test again and have them do the thing. It doesn't work for your brain. Can you explain that a little bit?
Meg: No. So as you can tell, by the way, I talk, things move a bit fast up in here, right?
So I needed approach, and even when I move, I don't like to do the same workout twice. I realized lifting and doing the, the, the, the bi's, the this. I don't enjoy doing that. I need a variety. That's how my brain works best. So what I love, listen, you and I, we connect on a lot of things, but like the MOAR you idea is what I do with clients, is I'm going to optimize, help you be the best version of yourself.
Okay. So, wherever you are on the brain spectrum on the movement spectrum, it's let's assess each movement based off how your brain responds in real time. Okay. So I don't want to set up, do all this stuff and give them the strategies. So I know. You, you're always telling me, talk more cerebellum, the cerebellum is the part of the brain that I'm, I know right, you're always like, more cerebellum. So it was interesting to me, there's always like these like cerebellum drills, and listen, I'm totally transparent, when we're talking about cerebellum strategies, do I know for a fact I'm targeting someone's cerebellum?
No, I don't have electrodes on their brain. The cerebellum should be the ultimate teacher. And if we give the clients all the cues, all the strategies, tell them how to do things, they're never having the opportunity to use their cerebellum. Right? So for example, Shanté, when I was at your place, we use pressure.
So I use pressure as a sensory stimulus to trigger a response in your cerebellum to pick a different movement pattern. Okay, so just one example of doing this now. I'm gonna I'm gonna go big and then I'm gonna come back in is when we're looking at a narrow approach is I look at everything. So right now I'm watching you.
You've got your hand on the chin. So maybe when I give an exercise, I'm gonna bring a sensory strategy to your jaw. Maybe you're doing this a lot. So I teach my students how to observe everything. And this sounds to people, overwhelming, but it's not. And the reason I got here was I need to know the whys.
My brain gets very focused. And if you can't break it down to the simplest form, that's why I love our conversations. Because if it's not simple, it ain't it, right? So when we're looking at something, if that can't be expressed simply, I just, it doesn't speak to me. So when I would ask professors, I remember one particular moment of when someone has a lower back injury, their multifidi turn off.
That was the verbiage that was used. And I'm like, word, why? And they're like, because the multifidi turn off. And I'm like, no, no, I'm not deaf. I'm asking why. And they're like, well, when you have a lower back injury, the multifidi turn off. And what I realized is they did not know why they just were repeating what they were told and then observed.
So for me, the multifidi don't turn off and on. And when we're saying we're activating person… Their multifidi were never active because they were never able to isolate their lumbar spine. Okay, so if you can't isolate your lumbar spine, why would your multifidi be active? That leads to a lower back injury, thus multifidi is still not active.
Now, that's just a story we're telling. I don't know if that's the exact reason for that person, but for me, it's always got to be the why. And I work with my ma my mentees, my students, I want them to break it down so they can explain it to people. Simply. I believe in educating clients. They're smart. They can handle it.
So back to the four quadrants stability model, it's basics. So my mother, Maureen Claire McAlevey is her maiden name. She's a little Irish. She used to always say, don't assume things. It makes an ass out of you and me. And that sticks in my brain. So I don't assume things. And you and I talked about this.
Everybody's assuming stability when things aren't moving, everybody's assuming joint differentiation. Let me tell you, nobody, none of you listening, even Shanté and I cannot differentiate our lower back from our pubic bone, from our hip joint, from our SI joint, as much as we would like. Okay. So the other piece of this whole puzzle is we use an assessment model in a movement.
I know which quadrant I'm assessing based off what I'm doing to test for reflexive stability, to test for joint differentiation, so we can add an intervention immediately. I like that. That should be my … All right, it's in there. Okay, I'm gonna stop doing I'm doing too much.
Maestro: I mean,
Meg: it's like picking a scam.
It's like one too many. That's what I want my students to feel empowered and what I love is one of my mentees, dude got a little cocky with me and I was like, all right, but he explained something simply in a way that resonated with people. Was it a concept I talk about all the time? But he put it in his, his words and it resonated with people and just seeing him kind of step out into his own light and realize he knows what he's talking about.
It's awesome. That's why I do this. I am a teacher. I love teaching people and I love seeing people kind of see themselves for the first time. Yeah. Oh my god, you're gonna make me… I never cry. So we joked, I said to Shanté, my goal is not to cry this one. Gary made me cry in 09. He's still making me cry today.
Maestro: I want to back up
Meg: It's emotional because people don't see themselves
Maestro: at all, at all.
And I mean, I mean, I like to say we talked about that as one of your gifts that like you, you do truly see people. And so that actually kind of ties into the question I have. I think when you have the gift of seeing people, it can make sifting through all of the possibilities of how to intervene a bit easier.
Cause you're like, yeah, I can do that. And you're comfortable leaning into that. One of the things you just said was when we're going to kind of MOAR you this treatment approach, and we're going to, you know, give you a tactile cue that revolves that involves like touching, scratching your head or, you know, putting your hand on your chin, because that's what we were both kind of doing at that moment, that that can be very overwhelming to a mentee, someone that's new to this.
Like, well, I have a million options. This is overwhelming. Can you speak to that again and kind of how you coach someone through this? And you're kind of like, okay, I hear it's overwhelming, but here's how we make it less overwhelming
Meg: Now, I know you and I are the same and what i've realized is people always ask for a system. They love systems.
Okay, number one if anybody's listening and need someone to name or come up with a system, dude, Jill. Jill is like … like I like I was like I am watching those wheels turn and it's always like a sexy thing. Remember when I was trying to come up with a system? I was it was like we were trying to make a thing and it came out as ass I'm like, if that's not on brand, I don't know what is, but going back is.
What I realize is people think they want a system but they don't because then you're like here. So what I created is a system of hierarchy of places to look so we're going to look at these four quadrants. We're going to look at um visual vestibular. So based off the client and their client history, which I teach as well we'll know where to start now.
Here's the freaking beauty of this, I had one of my mentees make a flow chart because i'm like… in a flow chart. I'm always like I can always maybe. Well, maybe, right? I'm always in the gray. So a flow chart to me, I'm like, well, it's never really a yes. Because what about this? And she was like, Oh my God. So she's like, I'm going to make the flow chart.
So I was like, good. And going through it, we created a flow chart so you can get here from there, from people who have systems. But the beauty is it beauty with it is if you're wrong, you just learned something. So you just assess something with that wrong choice. It leads you to the next thing because for me, um, it's all about sensory integration.
So these are concepts that I feel are, they've totally blown up, but there's no meat to them. Joint differentiation, stability, and sensory integration. I said it, I'm in one of my meetings and one of my students is like, you should make that a post. And I was like, good idea. There's a difference between sensory stacking and sensory integration.
So sensory stacking, stacking a bunch of stuff. Cool. That's going to be a challenge, but we don't know if that integrated. Um, so to piggyback another term that grinds my gears is neuroplasticity. People acting like that shit's easy. Neuroplasticity is not easy. It's like, yeah, just keep stepping it out. No, because there's competitive plasticity.
And I can't measure. You have to have acetylcholine released in two locations. Epinephrine. So like, do we really know? But what we do know, is things interfere with neuroplasticity. The eyes not focusing. The vestibular system moving too much. Pain. Spasticity, which we see in neuro tightness, all these things interfere with neuroplasticity.
So my job is not to be like, oh, I just created a new movement pattern. Let's do it 40 times. My job is to make sure the other things don't interfere so the brain can do the job. Which is kind of why I loved Anna on first meeting. We both have a D O approach, but do things totally different. Let the brain and the body sort that shit out.
This we're here to help facilitate. We're here to help facilitate. So, you know, you might not realize you do this all the time. You never do this. Okay, so I'm not going to tell you not to do that. I might make you do this while you're doing something else, maintaining that. So again, that wasn't a great example because people might be like, what the hell is she talking about?
What I'm trying to say is I might bring what you do normally into your sensory environment and then see if you can maintain that while you do something else and integrate those two movements. Because if we can isolate a limb here, we can isolate a limb anywhere, but if we move the arm, are they seeing this Shanté or am I just moving?
Maestro: They're seeing it. The people that are on YouTube are seeing it.
Meg: We're live on YouTube.
Maestro: No!
Meg: Why don't I read the emails you send me.
Maestro: It's not live on YouTube. When it goes up on YouTube.
Meg: So if somebody is lifting their arm and not realizing they're moving their body, that's not going to create sensory integration. But if we move them, so can we all do a drill right now?
Maestro: Just you and me. That's we all but yes,
Meg: Well, we're all well y'all it. Yes, but when you're watching this do this with me. Don't make me look like a loser. So what I want you to do is just lift your arm and watch yourself in the camera. Lift your arm Okay. Do you notice that we're both moving a little bit when we're lifting our arm?
Maestro: Yes it's not purely.
Meg: Okay, people don't realize they're moving. So if you're like now Shanté don't move and lift your arm. Like, we're gripping. So, which direction are you moving in when you lift your arm?
Maestro: You talking to me? Asking me?
Meg: I'm talking, I'm talking to the people who aren't live.
Maestro: I mean, I'm like, wait, I'm, listen, I'm trying to be a host here.
I'm moving in this, I have to go, I have to go look.
Meg: Okay, so now take your hand to the side of your head that you're moving towards. The other hand.
Maestro: I'm not going to use one.
Meg: Yeah, but can you have it on the side that you're moving towards? I know you don't want to move your head.
Maestro: You know what it is? It's actually because the camera's reversed.
And that's why I'm like, what side of my fucking head am I touching?
Meg: Oh, my bad. So here's what I want to do. Lift your arm without pressing your head into your hand.
Oh, look at that range of motion increase. Now, guys, when you watch on tape, did you notice what she did with her eyes? Exactly. I noticed what I did with my eyes. So I might then. She you looked up into the right, but if it's flipped, it could have been up to the left. What we now know is the visual systems aren't integrating.
So I would know my entry point would go right into the visual system. Proprioceptively wasn't the sauce. When I gave her a proprioceptive cue, I observed a shift in her eyes. Now if her eyes locked in. So if I'm here doing that. What do you notice about my eyes straight ahead? Okay, so we know a visual cue isn't the sauce.
It was the proprioceptive. So it really becomes simple. It's either a proprioceptive cue. No people get kind of all bugged out about that It's like if you're giving a sensation or a joint base cue that's affecting proprioception. If you're giving a visual cue, easy. And if we're giving vestibular cues, which everybody kind of ignores, dude, there's so much sauce there.
It's really helpful. So we kind of have three options. I think one of have a 33. 3% chance to be right or wrong.
Maestro: As people are listening to this. And one of my favorite things to do is to, I look to try and simplify things. And this is one of the, this is a discussion that Meghann and I continue to have because her brain moves so quickly around this stuff.
And I'm like, but wait a minute. I need to be able to understand it and I need to be able to explain it. And then we get to talk me through it. So one of the things that's cool about this and what I wrote down here is that the original question I had asked is people will feel overwhelmed. And I know that people just listening to this, the super nerds that are into the nerve, the neuro side of things are like, yeah, give me more.
The people that are more like me should have very traditional ortho approach or are probably like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And for those folks that are overwhelmed, one of the things that Meghann said in there that I want to back it up to is, she talked about it's still being right if it's wrong. That's basically what she said.
Even if you make the wrong decision, it's still information that you're learning. And I think that us ortho people can also understand what Meghann's actually doing is removing the fragility that we think is around approaching things from a neuro approach. I know for me personally. And a part of it, I just, I never even wanted to go into traditional neuro, but the way that the healthcare system is, the way that education is, people feel so frail and they feel so fragile.
That's actually the word I want. They feel so fragile that you think if you do the wrong movement, like, I think that if I like did an eye thing on somebody, they're going to die. Right? Yes. I understand the, that if you're working with someone that has significant, true, like neuro vestibular involvement, then you can overload things, but you can do that with anything.
We can do it with tissues as well. Yeah. You see it happen all the fucking time.
Meg: You just talking to them can overload.
Maestro: Exactly. But I think that one of the things,
Meg: You know what, it's interesting you say that. Listen, I've been doing this for 21 years. I've done a million evals on the most complex cases. I joke that I'm everybody's last resort.
That's a good place to be. That's okay. I get them results. But. But. What is really interesting is it's very rare that something goes wrong because again, so I always say to ortho people so when we break it down in smaller parts I know I just talked fast at you guys, but just break that break it down if we're changing the sensory environment So if you're doing an orthopedic approach say you're trying to mobilize the hip you're using a hands on approach, you're trying to change their proprioception their brains ability to know where they are okay.
Now, what would also be interesting is what are the eyes doing during that and the vestibular system. So a lot of times, like when people get, I went on a boat for the first time in my entire life without getting sick is by sensory integration. But what was happening is I was told my vestibular system was so fragile.
Exactly what you said. Yeah. Well, ever, you've had it ever since you were a kid, you know, uh, yeah. And vestibular PT did actually not work for me. No shame to any of my vestibular PTs out there because guess what my foundations weren't set. I was not reflexively stable enough to do that vestibular stuff.
So number one, it always comes back to what I call reflex stability and I call it reflexive because there's a big difference between gripping and a reflexive response. Now, chill. I always say this to my students and you help me with this because I think I, secretly, didn't mean to, was fear mongering gripping.
I didn't mean to, but by saying that's a gripping pattern, don't grip, we're going to go into a gripping pattern. If you have to lift something heavy or do something, you know, people grip all the time, you know, packing your lats is actually a gripping pattern, but it helps you do a lift. Did anybody die? No, but I want my clients to be able to be, to respond to things, not be always gripping and proactive.
So if you're gripping, that's fine. You know, a lot of times teachers, they get it here, but they don't get it in their body because they're micromanaging it. And then they come to my studio, they do an intensive, and then they cry because they think they've been doing it wrong all the years. I said, no, I just taught your body how to respond to that.
I'm pretty sure your body's been responding to other things. Absolutely. 100%. Can I piggyback before, I'm, I'm just monopolizing this conversation.
Maestro: I mean, it's your conversation. That's why I brought you on.
Meg: With the neuro stuff is, think about it also this way. People get overwhelmed with the eyes, but eye exercises, I simplify it like this.
A saccade or an eye jump, it's a plyometric. Okay? Gaze um, so gaze stabilization is an eye plank. I'm isometrically staring at you. Okay? Smooth pursuits is just kind of, you know, a linear movement. Okay, convergence, all these things equate to what we do in our body. So if you want, gaze stabilization is huge.
Maestro: It sounds like you're saying gay stabilization, just so you know.
Meg: That could be okay as well.
Maestro: That's what it sounds like. The first time you said it I was like, wut?
Meg: G A Z E, gaze Stabilization, is when your eyes can stabilize. Now, most people don't realize people's eyes are moving. The population I love to work with is people on the spectrum, or autism, or wherever they're at. A lot of times… their bodies can't be still because their eyes can't be still.
Oftentimes we force them to do things in their bodies. I did this great eval on this young boy in the UK and when I would ask him to do something, he would either do it or not. When I asked him to sit on the floor, he did not move as if he was deaf. I asked him to sit in the chair. He did. So we established just from that observation.
He's got some proprioceptive issues at his SI joint because when he had to sit on the floor his pelvis would tuck under so I said maybe he doesn't sit on the floor. We let him sit in a chair where he can concentrate. When he was sitting in the chair he was able to do all these upper body exercises. Okay, so with the gaze stabilization as I was doing reflexive stability drills with him before I did I exercises because if I force him to look and move his eyes the foundational patterns aren't there.
He can't gaze stabilize. So I'm gonna simplify it even further just move people's eyes around. Just don't do don't do anything but move people's eyes around Isolated from head and body that's gonna help them better gaze stabilize. Okay, so if you notice your clients looking all over the place it's not that they're uninterested.
They're searching for sensory input So make them move their eyes and then leave it alone. Just start there. This right here. I am very handsy today.
Maestro: I'm here for it. Anyone that's watching, not even anyone, if you're listening to this, uh, you know, you're in your car or something like that, maybe pause it.
And then when you get home, pick it up on the YouTube, put it on the big screen, so you can see just how animated she is. Meghann's actually more animated than I am. Y'all know I say using my hands. I got a very animated face. Meghann tops that. So, yeah,
maybe go check it out.
Meg: Well, I'm still in Jersey. If you were still in Jersey, it probably would be.
Maestro: I went to the West Coast and it got sucked out a little bit. Chilled out a little bit. It did. The sun just …
Meg: I'm a little chiller when I'm on the West Coast. I mean, you know.
Maestro: One of the things that…
Meg: Takes a few days to get there.
Maestro: It does. And especially in the last time you came, the weather was shit, but I digress, I digress.
Meg: The last two times.
Maestro: I said I digress. I wasn't trying to bring it up again, Meghann. I know what it was both times. I know. It's fine now though. Sunny. One of the things that, and we're going to get into this reflexive stability because this is something that makes so much sense to me, and anyone that is, uh, you know, like me, any of you kind of true orthophiles or whatever you want to call yourselves.
We understand this, right? And we understand, uh, Meghann has said she was kind of was fear mongering, uh, gripping. And what we say in, in kind of our space is that your stability needs to be appropriate for the demands of the task, right? Yes. If you're doing some max one rep max, okay. Yeah. You're going to Valsalva.
You're going to brace because that shit's heavy. If you're just bending up to pick up your shoe,
Meg: I love how you describe that. I don't mean to interrupt years ago. I can't remember where it was. I think when you came to Jersey, of course, first. Matt, was that it? So it's like, guys, you're doing way too much to do very little.
Maestro: Exactly. That. People trying to roll over that.
They're like hold your breath.
Meg: From someone who's always doing too much, do less.
Maestro: That's it.
I'm like, you're doing too much. This is where
Meg is going.
Meg: But I think where it gets confusing is how do they do less? Totally. So it's like, they have to do more because it's like they want to feel something.
At the end of the day, I don't mean to be like all spiritual about it, but everybody just wants to feel something. And what I feel is different than what you feel. So going back to individualized education is like when people ask me what reflexive stability feels like, I go, what does happiness feel like?
And they're like, I'm like, serious. Cause what does happiness feel like?
Maestro: Absolutely. Absolutely. Very interesting. I'm going to ask a question that's going to have a long answer from you, so maybe you go first.
Meg: I feel like I'm ready to move on. Sometimes I beat a dead horse and circle the drain, so.
Maestro: We're going to stay though, around there, because I want to talk about, as it releases this reflexive stability, I want to phrase this, where are we looking at it?
Where are we looking for it at? I don't like putting the proposition at the end of the sentence, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Where are we looking for it and how does that tie into the 4 quadrants?
Meg: So you wanna you, me to give all my secrets away? That's it. What about my course? I'm totally kidding. I'm giving it, I love it because I want people to hear this.
You and I talked about this. You're like, Meghann, you're taking, you're assuming you Maureen Koppele'd me. My mom. I assumed that when I'm talking about the four quadrants, I teach anatomy a little different. You have four pelvi. So we've got our clavicle, scapula, humerus, clavicle, scapula, humerus. Then we've got our pelvi down below.
The difference between the upper quadrant and the lower quadrant is the SI joint. So our scapula, let's like, you know, let's put a string between our shoulder blades. What if we had an SI joint there? We wouldn't be able to do this with our arm. So the SI joint is limiting the movement of the femur and the pelvis, but going back even simpler, more simple or simpler, which is the word I like simpler.
Grammar is not my strength, but I'm like, I'm just like what sounded better there. Yeah, whatever. Or more simply, you're like, but why those four quadrants? I'm like, because I said so. And then I'm like because they're the most mobile joints in the body people aren't moving and you're like, that's it I was like, I never said that out loud.
I assumed it. So our ball in the socket glenohumeral joint is the most mobile joint in the body But what's interesting is Shanté do you think you can differentiate your AC joint from your glenohumeral?
Maestro: Meghann ain't happening for me.
Meg: Okay. So what happens is people are not using their glenohumeral.
They're obsessed about the shoulder blade But you're not even using your glenohumeral. Okay, same thing with the hip joint. So femur in acetabulum. That's a very mobile joint. We are not using our hip joint. It's very hard. So everybody right now touch your pubic bone. It's your pubic bone. Touch your SI joint. They're very close together.
That's the other assumption I don't make is, people cannot differentiate them So giving them a clamshell all they're gonna do is what's available. You need to show their brain what else is available and then let that shit ride. Now Remember when I was in California, I was testing because upper quadrant, to me you want to fix your client's gait, all your neuro clients, let me tell you the sauce is actually in the upper quadrant.
Um, the beautiful things we're seeing with our work on quadrant stability, that's the next study we're going to be doing, is it doesn't cure anxiety. It doesn't cure depression. It doesn't cure anything. But it helps people do higher level things. So, meaning If your brain is micromanaging and trying to stabilize you, especially in the upper quadrant, there becomes a lot of tension.
A lot of people, we see increased level of anxiety, especially in hypermobile people. I had this new woman, she basically got a spinal cord injury from all the cortisone injections they were doing. And she has such chronic headaches. With lower quadrant reflexive stability, one drill, she's like, why do I not feel the headache?
It literally went away. Okay. So what people are doing all these interventions, but they didn't change the check the foundation of her house. There's a huge crack in her foundation. Okay. So back to what we were talking about is I wanted to say, I want to go upper quadrant first. I want to do that. And then I tested it on you.
I tested on every client that week. I saw It wasn't it and the reason why it's so complicated. The shoulder joint is way more complicated than the hip. So foot to hip our foot is usually closed chain and walking. We're used to that feedback from foot to hip. Also, you kind of feel your ass working. Yeah, okay, and then to get the pelvis to move around legs.
You're gonna feel, I always say everybody wants to look better naked. So when you feel that abs and ass working you might get buy in. Upper quadrant reflex stability, you know, people don't care about their neck abs until they're older. Okay. Nailed it. So what happens it's not as big of a buy in. So I said, you know what?
Why am I going in trying to teach calculus to people who don't know how to add and subtract? So I teach this foundational, we go through the whole series. So in my advanced neurotechniques course we break it down. We not only break down lower quadrant, upper quadrant stability, reflexive, we also break down learning styles, how to observe, um, how to adjust your style.
And my favorite part of the first weekend is the emails I get. People are like, Oh my God. This is why that client and I don't get along or that didn't work. They had these huge aha moments and I want them to take the learning style changes first because I don't want teachers to change who they are.
Then at the end of the course, we take all that stuff we learned and we integrate it with visual and vestibular. I also thought about bringing visual vestibular early, but guess what? You get quick wins with visual and vestibular, but not integration because it's the foundational shit that's cracked.
Maestro: This is also folks, one of the reasons I love Meghann's approach because she's articulating things that I felt, uh, as I was kind of nearing the end of my career, uh, with my treating side of things and the vestibular stuff was getting really big and eyes were getting really big, you know, I brought the boys from IKN on and love them.
Um. Z health, all of that. Love it. People doing great stuff. Love it. But I would never bought in that that would be the best place to start in terms of I want prolonged carryover. We all learned about neurological trickery and that's what I was feeling like there was a lot of like, I could get a quick win and I'm like, but I wanted to,
Meg: it always felt like trickery to me too.
I needed a why. Now what's interesting, the only clients I start with visual are my athletes because you do not go effing up an athlete's proprioception during sport. Okay. So what's interesting is I work with this young, um, just recently won a big tournament under 12 tennis. Uh, he's 12. He is 12 years old and an excellent tennis player.
That was a really hard sentence. There we go. All we worked on was foot to hip and VORs, just the vestibular ocular reflex and you know why I threw that in? He's hypermobile. So I'm like, when you get tired, I just want you to do a VOR. So look at something and turn your head. So it helps his eyes refocus. Listen, tennis is all about the eyes being able to jump and track and seeing the ball in.
I didn't go crazy with him. And his mother said, Meghann, it's crazy. He does it all the time. And you know, a 12 year old kid is not going to do shit that doesn't help.
Maestro: Exactly. Question for you, Meg.
Meg: He's coming back and we're going to add in another piece. And what was interesting to me, I'm totally going sports for a minute because I can talk sports with you.
A lot of my, um, neuro teachers or my Pilates teachers are like you with the sports references. I have a father who's a huge sports fan and a two daughters. So I'm very ESPN educated and I married a coach. Anyway, Bo Jackson. Remember him? Bo knows?? Yeah, of course. He was powerful as hell. He actually dislocated his own hip.
Talk about strength. However, he was neurologically weak. You don't know this? Google that shit. Watch it. He's running and he… So yes, because he posteriorly dislocated his femur because he put his leg out and the what happened his foot, his hip didn't respond to his foot because he was so effing powerful that the hip went back then he rolled on it, relocated it.
Okay. Now Bo Jackson was a professional baseball player and a professional football player There's not many of those and he was great. He wasn't good Okay. So google the Bo knows. If you're under 40, you might not know Bo knows. They did a commercial and it was like, oh, Bo knows tennis. And he would play with the best tennis players.
Anyway, for me, it was actually his visual acuity and his ability to integrate that with proprioception. So we're on Bo Jackson. Okay, I'm a running back. So he had such a big visual field that he could take in that whole field. And what's interesting is whoever moves first loses. Yes. Right, you played soccer.
So if I go to the right,
where are you gonna go?
Maestro: Yeah, i'm going left the left.
Meg: In tennis, there's poaching. So what I do is I never poach because once you poach people know you're going there and if you play someone that's good they're just gonna hit it over there. So what I do is I don't look at the ball and right when they hit it I'm going to respond right and left based off where their rackets facing because if I move before them, they can change their racket, right?
So Bo was able to see the whole visual field and was able to pop up off those people. Then we talk about baseball, baseball. He was able to see a ball come in, converge with peripheral vision at the same time. And guess what sport he does now?
Maestro: Golf? I don't know.
Meg: I mean, there's a lot of sports.
Archery.
Maestro: Okay, I was like, something's shooting.
Something's accuracy there. Got it. Got it.
Meg: Okay, so very interesting about so get excited about the visual field. Listen, it might not flip the coin, but opening up their visual field is going to help their body do more things, and especially athletes that need to do weird shit with their body.
Maestro: The kid that came to you, Meg, he came to you and I know like HIPAA is so you don't have to tell me his name or anything like that.
But are these people coming to you for pain or coming to you for performance?
Meg: Um, His mother knows me and saw, didn't realize I play tennis and I just started after playing. I haven't played in 10 years. I'm playing better now than I played when I was in high school. Okay, just by working that sensory integration.
I do practice what I preach. I do the shit I teach every day and I can't say that a lot about a lot of people. Okay, not to talk shit, but I just did yeah. Um, so she he was very hyper mobile and she's like do you think this stuff will help? I'm like bring him down right and kids are so easy to work with because oh my god It's either a yes or no if they're not paying attention to you.
Shut up. I did that I don't remember the thing I did with my niece with the girl scouts. Yep. Got a little girl she's like I can't do a push up got her do a push up but when I started talking about the names of the muscles, they're all like That ain't it. And the funny thing, parents, I'm a parenting expert.
I have no children, so obviously I'm an expert. But when I asked these kids, all the kids, their least favorite class was language arts, because there's a lot of words that they have to learn, but they don't really understand the meaning. So when I was saying, we have I abs, I was trying to be cute about it.
Like our rectus abdominis, you know, our rectus superior. As soon as I started saying words that didn't have a meaning to them, it was like this and their mothers are like, girls behave. And I'm like, It's fine. And I said, how about we use our eye abs? And then we just did movement. So, like, it's so interesting In the course my advanced course to go back to it parents are like, oh my god I am better communicating with my child or my husband. I used to say to Brian look at me when i'm talking to you, to my husband. Mind you he's a big man. He's much taller. Big man. But you know what's interesting it's hard for him to gaze stabilize when he's looking at me. He doesn't listen as well. Brian actually will have he will be cooking with music on and the tv on and he'll be talking to me I'm an auditory learner, but I can't have more than two auditory stimulus or I lose my shit literally. So i'm like you got to turn off one of the things but he actually hears better. He'll be doing something and he hears me when I talk. When i'm doing work I say to him don't talk to me when i'm doing work, I can't hear you. We have like role reversal. People always say men don't listen. I can only listen when that's the only thing I'm doing.
Maestro: I love this. I want you, I want you to dive into this.
Meg: This shit is so cool. It helps you be a better human.
Maestro: This is what I want. So one of the reasons I brought Meghann on is to talk about her course.
After working with her, really getting to dive into how her brain works and what all this is about. I was like, dude, I get it. Fuck yes, I want people that are still treating to know about this. So, I was like, let me also bring you on and let's talk about the course. So, this is a great segue because you kind of looped it back into learning styles and, and, and, and, and individualizing someone's treatment.
So, can you run me through what is this? What's this course, Meg?
Meg: Yeah, so the advanced neurotechnique, so we've got the NeuroStudio. We focus on neurological conditions. So after we've got a Pilates for Neurological Conditions workshop, where you learn about, um, the pathology. So you'll learn about MS, Parkinson's, stroke, the symptoms, stuff you can do for it.
And now, PTs, let me tell you how we, we have developed a new way to work with spasticity. Okay, any person you talk about spasticity as a response and to use it they are usually a neuro studio trained teacher. So it was not the shit I learned in school man. Totally different. So PT sometimes poo poo that course because they think they know it. It's different. But the advanced neuro techniques is we now take, you have all this information. Now, how does this work actually in practice?
So we meet, I don't do this course in person anymore and I'll tell you why. I used to do this two days in a row. Imagine this for two days straight. People were like, this was so fun, but I don't remember anything. So it's over three months. We meet one week in a month. We start with kind of the Meghann's neuro background.
We talk about how to learn. We do cerebellum. We do all this stuff in the front end. I review neurological conditions. A lot of people who take this course don't want to work in neurological conditions. They just want to have better strategies for their clients. So we do the first week. The first day is all about that.
Then we talk about the cerebellum in day two, which you know I'm obsessed with. And then we talk about lower quadrant stability. Then we talk about upper quadrant stability. Then we integrate visual and vestibular the last weekend. So you walk away each weekend with stuff you're going to work on. Now, some people, I know I'll look at a student.
I'll be like, it'll all come together on weekend through. Usually after the first day, people are like, what the fuck did I sign up for? I'm overwhelmed. But something I also got from you, so thank you, is at the end of every course, even if I have to stay on an extra half hour, I let everybody share what their take home was, because that's super important.
I want you to implement this on Monday. That's important to me. It won't work if you don't do it. I encourage mistakes. We learn way more from mistakes than we do successes. flowcharts.
Yeah, you've got to make mistakes because the cerebellum, I almost call it, it used to be back in the day, they're like, Oh, the cerebellum is like the helper. It's like in the background. Number one, the cerebellum, there's varying numbers, but the smallest number is 50% and the largest I've seen is 80%. 50 to 80% of all the neurons in the brain are in the cerebellum.
So maybe we should be paying more attention to it. It's like a different nugget. I mean, look at my little brain here. It looks different. That to me is like a big aha, but, um, I lost my train of thought. Where was I? Oh, the three months. And what I do is I kind of stage you through it. I give people advanced movement flows because our kinesthetic learners need to feel it in their body.
Okay. Now there's debate on, I don't like making you a kinesthetic learner. Everybody's multidimensional. So you're not just a kinesthetic learner, but a lot of people need to move to feel okay. Then we have observation they can do. So there's all to touch on different how different people learn and why I'm so.
I love teaching. This course is the results. I can confidently say, and the only other person I know who says this, and I know she does this, it's no bullshit, is Anna. We can guarantee results. In a session with me I am going to guarantee a change. I can do that. And I'm telling you, I was always like 90% 92 94. Like you.
We were always good. But this shit makes because when something doesn't go right it tells us where to go We find a thing the person leaves with an aha. We're good. Okay, so I I'm really so passionate about this because it's it's really improved my life. I mean I had a Pilates studio for years. Brick and mortar.
I left, sold it and was going to work for my dad in insurance. I was like you, I was burnt the fuck out. I wasn't happy. Okay. Because I was getting like 92% and it, it sucked. This. I see, you know, this. We talk about this. I still see clients every day with the exception of Sundays. And I do that because that's how I learned the best.
I'm not bragging, but I run two businesses, the neuro studio and Koppele method and do our Instagram. And my students are like, how do you do this? Because I schedule shit, how it works for me. But if I'm not with clients in the weeds, I lose my touch. But it allows me to do that shit. Totally right. I've been going since seven this morning.
I could keep going certain days. Yesterday was not a good day I was very cranky. But this this has just made my life better. Financially as well. Um, it's helped me be a better version of myself and really understand who I am as a human. It's made me a better mentor. Um, I think it's helped me connect to others like you. Like I joined legacy, I have a very successful business.
I wanted to branch out to something new, but I'm always the boss. I was so empowered and felt so good being in that room of bad ass women. And, you know, I always was kind of like, am I too good for this kind of thing? But it wasn't that it was like, they were all high level people too. And I felt like really seen and supported.
And it's nice to have a sounding board on like minded people. Also guys, these courses, these mentorships, that's just a business expense, be tight with your business. I want, I want people to treat it like a business. This is not a hobby. This nice. You can have both. You can love what you do, but still make a living, a good living.
Maestro: Make a good living. I was gonna say,
Meg: is that okay to say?
Maestro: Make a very good living. I was literally, I was like, I'm gonna say it, make a really, really good living.
Meg: I played tennis for two hours today.
Maestro: She almost died, folks.
Meg: I would've never been able to do that in the past.
Maestro: Said she almost died, folks. But she made it. She texted me to tell me, she's like, listen, it was fucking hot.
Meg: Oh, I was, I was on the struggle bus and it wasn't even that hot and I complained the whole time. I feel like I was that person, but like everybody was laughing and then I'm like, I don't do well in the heat.
Maestro: Dude, you know what you like and that's fine. Nothing wrong with it.
Meg: I know. I don't like the cold either.
I like a moderate temperature.
Maestro: LA baby. You folks listening, this is why I brought Meghann on. That last bit there. You've heard her energy this whole entire episode. You can hear how intelligent she is. You can hear how passionate she is. And then she just blended, just married the life, the business side of things as well.
And this… I'm pointing at the thing you can't see. That, that she just said is why I brought her on here. And that is why I wanted you folks listening to hear her approach. It's why I've brought other people on in the past. Cause I, my whole shtick, build, live, actually experience your best life. And I want to give you all the tools possible for that.
And if I was still treating, this is absolutely an approach that I'd be looking at because especially like you said, that last part from a business perspective. You got to be able to fucking guarantee results. It's it. When we first start out, we don't know. We're kind of learning things. And when, if you ever flip the script and you have the issue, you have the pain, you have the problem, when you go to a provider, you don't want a fucking, it depends and no answer after that. You want someone who, you know, can help you. It's not like, Oh, I need you to fix me, but you want a result. I want that for you folks, and I want you to be able to figure out whatever approach that's going to be. And after working with Meghann, I was like, I want people to know that this thing exists so that they can go and, you know, dive into it, go in and look and see if it fits for them.
Meg: Can I say one more thing?
Maestro: And then give me the information where they can find you.
Meg: Yeah, so something, an interesting observation I had observing somebody else's course. Nobody in this room or sphere. Um, it was like a show. It was like, look at what I can do with my hands and manipulate someone's body. And it rubbed me the wrong way.
So I sat back and thought, do I do that a little bit? I didn't mean to, but when you're showing stuff hands on and a technique, I felt the people who had my hands on them were like, Oh my God, this is life changing and everybody watching it. Some people got it and other people were like, I will never be able to do that.
So how I changed it and COVID really created a big shift for me, I have people that are bedridden. I get, sometimes I actually get better results on Zoom because we have to work on sensory integration. I can't do as much like it's crazy. Nick, who had who had a stroke at 13, which I've shared with you, just recently got engaged.
We posted a- what we practiced was getting him down to the knee and up because it kept increasing his spasticity. And when he increased his spasticity, he couldn't talk from his stroke. There's people, let me, two things. So number one, everything I teach in the course, there is not one person listening that can't do it too.
I am at about that. I am not putting fairy dust on people. I am not doing anything that is like… everything I do. I am going to teach you how to do it. We talk through, I make people ask, ask questions, we get interactive. So that's what I want people to hear. And the other thing is people need you guys. They need good practitioners.
The shit I hear every day is frightening. I just did an eval on a woman who's been doing shoulder PT and I was like, now, I never badmouth a practitioner because I don't believe in that, but what was interesting is she was doing all these exercises, but her brain mapped her cervical spine, her entire upper quadrant, right and left arm and lumbar spine, the same thing.
So when she was doing her right arm exercises, her brain map could not go back, go back to school. The sensory homunculus, right?
Maestro: There it is. There it is.
Meg: That shit, they're all next to each other. Her brain thought those were all one thing. So then when she's going to walk and trying to arm swing, why are we surprised that everything's moving?
So people need you guys. I have a wait list. I refer out all the time. We need qualified practitioners. I'm telling you if you're struggling in your business or you want to feel the passion again, Like, come on over to the dark side, meaning the NeuroStudio side, I got you. I need your help. I can't do it myself.
Maestro: Meg, how do they do this?
Meg: Not everyone likes me. I know it's hard to believe.
Maestro: Fuck those people. I'm sorry. Where do they find you? How do they do this? Where can they get more information? How can they sign up for waitlists? All the things. Let me know. We're going to put it in the show notes, folks, but I like to have the guests articulate these.
Meg: I'll start at the easiest. Instagram. The NeuroStudio. Also, my personal, uh, my other side business where I see clients, also non neuro clients, is The Copel. No, that's not my Instagram name. It's MeKoppeleDuffy. That's it. Okay? I know. My name Meghann is spelled weird, so I took that shit out. Koppele is two P's, one L.
Get that shit right. Um, it's a picture of me and my dog. That's where I talk a little bit more about the mentorship, the learning styles, non neuro stuff. Neuro studio you're going to get stuff like that. Websites, the neuro studio, koppelemethod.com. Easy as that. So you'll get all that information there. Um, we've got us, we've got special bonuses coming up in August.
Um, we got a lot of cool shit coming out. You know, I know someone who's great at sales who's taught me a few things, some early action bonuses. We also have a special bonus from yours truly. This is me putting you, I'm holding you. Okay. So a little bonus from Shanté. So when you take that course, you'll get that bonus as well.
So make sure you get on the wait list. You'll see it at the neuro studio or just go on Instagram or just send me a message to say hello. Obviously I like to talk to people.
Maestro: It's my favorite part about her.
Meg: That's right. Gotta have some fun. We're gonna have some fun.
Maestro: This is fucking awesome, right? I always know you're gonna bring the energy.
I always love our conversations, whether it's on Voxer or texting. And I was like, yo, this podcast is going to be
Meg: Can you tell them my Voxer messages, what they sound like?
Maestro: They sound like this, folks. They sound a little bit frantic because
Meg: I think I'm doing voice to text, I'll be like period, space.
Maestro: Period. People, that's the learning curve there. It's fine, it's the learning curve and I expect it. I just laugh, so it's, it's great. I hope that you folks listening to this, well how do I want to phrase it? I hope that your eyes have been opened. I know that Meg speaks fast. I know that she, the, the information can come very, very quickly, but I also know that this is a very, very open minded, very, very educated, very curious audience.
And that is why I brought her on. Not, no decisions have to be made in this moment. I just wanted to put her on your radar if she wasn't there already. And this way, when that moment is right, and you're like, you know what? I want to be able to guarantee results. You know what? I'm ready to kind of dive into that neuro approach.
You know what? I have this issue and maybe I want to learn more about it. You know what? I have some time and I want to explore this. You know what? I just want to laugh. I'm going to hit Meghann up. You know what? I got celiac. I want to go and get some gluten free Oreos. When that moment comes… I just want you to have someone that's going to be top of mind.
And I hope it's my hope that that is going to be Meghann. We've put all the things in the show notes.
Meg: And I do talk fast when I lecture, but we give you the recordings for life so that you can review them. And my rule of thumb with me is when you hear a nugget that resonates, you turn it off, let that marinate.
Because if you get all these beautiful nuggets, in a course, you're only going to remember the last nugget. So I tell my students, we're going to do it live. I talk fast. I always will. I am not going to change. I often curse. This is how I talk. So I like people to know that because if you're like, I can't stand the sound of her voice, that's not going to change.
Okay. But with the recording, you can slow me up. You can speed me down. But I always find is if you stop resonates and just let that sit.
Maestro: I'm gonna make that meta and leave the episode there. Just let that sit Meg. Thank you. We had to reschedule. I mean it. I love you too. For real. That's why I'm bringing you on and just I'm grateful to have you in, in my ecosystem at all. And I, anything I can do to, to share this message with people, you know, that I'm fully, fully on board.
Meg: Can I give one more person a shout out… from another one of your group. So if you're thinking about your, any of Shante's groups, um, being around all those like minded practitioners was really wonderful and like Missy. Yes. Okay. She does neuro stuff too. Missy, but he was looking at my Instagram.
She's like, girl, have you ever heard of a cover photo? And I was like, what's a cover photo. So in real time shared with me something that really helped the neurostudio get the message across. So it's being in your orbit and the people around you. It's, it's truly women and people identify or men, whoever's in this circle is really supporting other people.
So that to me, you don't see that a lot. And that is because of you. So I am very appreciative of that. And I had a shout out Missy for the thanks with the cover graphics, because now everybody's like, how do you do that? And I was like, well, let me show you. So sorry. We had a good moment to end, but I wanted to compliment you.
Maestro: Oh, there you go. You dropped it. You dropped away, but we're back, but we're back.
Meg: Sorry. You're back. I said I'm sorry. We wanted to end it on a great note, but I wanted to share that.
Maestro: You know what? I think that that's actually dope because that speaks to the type of person that Meghann is. Meghann's going to end an episode by shouting somebody out.
That's the kind of person that you're going to get if you work with her. We got all the things in the show notes, folks. As always, endlessly appreciative for every single one of you. We know that you could have been doing anything else and you chose to listen to us. And for that, we are both endlessly, endlessly, endlessly appreciative.
My only ask, if you like this episode, if you love this episode, if you're picking up what we are putting down, do me a solid and go connect with Meghann. That is my ask. Do me a solid and go connect with Meghann. If you want to share the episode, amazing. But more than that, let's, let's go and slide into those DMs and, and give Meg a little hello, right?
All right. Officially wrapping it up. Until next time, friends, Maestro and Meghann out.
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