[Transcript starts at 1:54]
Maestro: Hello, friends, Maestro here, bringing you another episode of my favorite podcast. And this is the first guest episode of the year. Maybe the only one, I don't know. They're a little bit tough to do, but I got a repeat offender on here. I brought her on the podcast at least once, maybe more than that. I talk a lot, so I forget, uh, but real talk y'all there is this a shit ton of shit going on in the world right now.
And. For better or for worse, whenever that's happening, I reach out Dr. J pop, right? For better or for worse for her, when all this stuff is going on, I'm like, Hey, I could use someone to talk to. Uh, and I have learned that we all have different ways that we show up. We all have different ways that we contribute.
And one of the best ways that I can contribute is by giving people a platform. It's by giving people a microphone. So today I am giving Dr. J pop The microphone. So without further ado, welcome back to the show. One of my very, very good friends and someone that you all know and love because she's in every single episode at the beginning, y'all were sad.
I changed the intro and you thought that I took her out. Like, are you crazy? Are you crazy? No, that's the best part of the whole intro. I know. So welcome back to the show. Your favorite part of the intro music, my good friend, Dr. J. Puff. Welcome.
Dr. JPop: Hey, y'all. It's good to be back with my friends.
Maestro: People were like, I thought for a second that it wasn't in there and I was like, what?
Are you kidding me? I know that y'all speak for the past six years. If you listen to the intro, you're saying it along with her. So
Dr. JPop: the new and improved version this time, the character.
Maestro: All right. Good. We've grown up together.
Dr. JPop: Yes.
Maestro: Very much from the, the humble beginnings of rock tape course where Jennifer didn't remember anything that I taught.
And she's like, will you talk to that? And I was like, yes, we went over that.
Dr. JPop: Every time. Yeah.
Maestro: Every time. And you're here every time. It's still in there. I still remember that. I'm like, I remember. You didn't remember to this, we have been together through, uh, racism happened in 2020. And everyone was like, it's here and now, uh, it's back and everything is happening times a million in 2025.
So how about actually, if we start off with just a little bit of a catch up, I don't even know where exactly we were the last time, but how about if you set the stage with just kind of where, what you've been doing, uh, That makes sense for you to share and then we'll, yeah, we'll go.
Dr. JPop: Yeah. Um, it's funny you said racism is back and I'm thinking all the isms are on the stage.
Everything right now. Everything is, um, and for a lot of us who have been navigating the world with that one lens or two lenses, depending on our identities, um, you could see the stripping coming and how it was becoming less about different groups and how it was going to be. Everyone who was impacted and I think probably two years ago, I was watching how we were interacting with each other online and the questions I was getting in courses and I realized, Oh shit, I think we missed something guys.
I think we missed something that you already know. I don't believe in leading with shame. I don't believe in leading with guilt. That has never gotten anyone anywhere. Um, it definitely hasn't brought us closer together, but then I looked at how we introduced allyship in 2020. And the fact that we didn't consider everybody's state of mind, um, that we didn't consider what everybody else was going through and that some of that manic energy we were feeling while they.
Can see the things that were wrong. There was still this innate feeling. I got to do something. I got to do something now that I know I got to do something. And there's no, there's nothing that you've ever learned where you immediately knew after you figured out, you didn't know. There's literally nothing you can really do except for like the simple games, you know, but big concepts like something that's been around for more than a year.
There's absolutely no way I can give you something today. And tomorrow you're going to be a completely new person. And yet it felt like we just kept saying, go do this, go to this protest, call, call your Senator for this and, um, show up for black people and show up for a transfer. It, it was just a, this is what you do.
And when you look at the. Yeah. When you looked at the culture of our world, we live off of checklists. We live off of tasks. We don't even stop to question things anymore. We just say, how do I do this? How do I be this bet? I'm going to go do it. Not considering there may be a chasm, a gap of learning, a gap of understanding that we're missing.
If we don't first say why, Why is all of this here, one, and what part have I played in co creating all of this, even if it was subconsciously? And I think if we stopped and did that in 2020, I do believe we would be approaching 25, 2025 differently. I also believe we may be in a different state in D. C., but Here we are.
Here we are. So the last two years for me have really been, how do I help people just see themselves? In this work, not separate themselves, not do what they're told, not show up. Because what we were also seeing was the minute you were questioned, the minute you were called out, whether it was warranted or not, the minute you heard somebody label you racist or homophobic.
You went to your checklist, he said, there's no way because I've got a black friend and you know, I went to the protest and I read the books and we didn't integrate. We didn't get that processing part, which can take. A long time, even in this work, 40 something years now, I'm still unlearning things and still having to have self checks for myself.
And I feel like there was a degree of perfection that was put on allyship that now I'm like, let's just burn the word, burn it. I understood, I understood that people didn't like it. But now it's less about the people and more about what it represents for people and how it's like, well, either we revamp it for real or we just burn it down and say, what do we want to be?
Who do we want to be? Um, and how do we move forward with this new knowing that we have?
Maestro: So yeah, that's the last three years. Do you think people didn't like it? Who? Can you say more about that?
Dr. JPop: When you say, say that again? People didn't
Maestro: like allyship. People didn't like the word allyship. Can you speak to that?
There are a
Dr. JPop: lot of black activists who, even in 2020, were like, I hate the term ally. I hate the term ally because it's more than that. And it was a part, they were right. Let's put that first. Let's give a whole lot of credence to the understanding of why. But it was the breaking down of why that we didn't see.
And That's through no fault of any activist, we are all on a healing, grieving, growing journey. Um, but what people didn't understand in that gap and they couldn't figure out for themselves, they just filled in with tasks and, and more tasks and more tasks and more groups and more fight and more yelling and more speaking and just not enough stopping and saying, what are we doing?
And how is how we're doing it going to get us to a new place?
Maestro: I want to jump right in. I'm just going to ask the questions. I have, I wrote down a few things as you're, as you were speaking. For those listening, when I, when we, when I run these podcasts, like I try to tell a story, I have something in mind.
And this one I didn't. I was messaging with, I talked to Jennifer all the time, but I was texting her beforehand. Um, and he had some like talking points, but I didn't, I don't have a specific direction that I want this to go. I'm, I'm, I'm learning and listening along with, with you folks. So I'm just going to ask the questions.
Maybe they're out of order. Uh, but. Something that's been really top of mind for me and weighing heavily on me is do we, globally, have the capacity to forgive? I'm going to use those words, and they might be the right words, but one of the things that I'm concerned about in my HSP self is, is seeing a lot of There's a lot of anger and justified anger, right?
A lot of anger. And when someone leaves a cult, you can't be like, you fucking stupid ass. What were you doing in there? How the fuck you not see that? Like that's ultimate. Even, even if that cult hurt you, right? Right there, they're part of the cult and they're doing mean things to you. And that person, someone leaves and.
So maybe, you know, forgive isn't the right word, but do we have the capacity to
Dr. JPop: move forward? I do believe we have it. Um, it comes back to that stopping part though, and actually looking at what, what do we believe forgiveness should look like? Um, one of the quotes I remember reading early on was from an author, Tiffany Janna, and they said, grace with the expectation of progress.
That's the, that's what you hold inside is grace with the expectation of progress. Meaning you don't allow it and just say, I forgive it. You say, I forgive. However, here are the roots that we need to tend to now. Um, one of the, this, this actually can pertain to cancel culture too. Cause that came back was, that's been huge for the last four years.
Um, I asked this one question to people like, do you feel like you owe someone redemption? Especially when it comes to these big names, um, what does redemption mean for you when you have somebody who's done something wrong? And maybe they do put out a AI generated statement, but if they start trying to change how they move, what does redemption look like?
Because truthfully, none of us. own redemption. We own our consumption. We own how we approach things. We own what we let around us. Um, and we own our own healing journeys. And there's a lot of times in the healing journey where you have to stop and say, yes, that person was wrong. However, is my desire to hold them to what they did based off my issues.
My issues with a collective of people who look like them. There's more questions that we can ask But to be honest when you are angry and you are facing these things on a daily Sometimes hour by hour basis depending on where you are. It's hard to get out of that because you're still getting Okay, grace with the exit Yeah.
I can't have grace. If you, if you molly whopping me to the ground every day, I'm my anger is actually my survival mode because I'm tired of you pushing me there. I'm tired of a system getting me to that point or surprising me with that because I didn't expect it. So if I just maintain this. Because I am angry.
I don't have to move anywhere. You don't get to shake me. You also don't get in and we don't get to connect, but I'm safe. This is, this is my safety mechanism. Um, so that's when it comes to forgiveness, we have the capacity. Do we have the desire is really the question and the understanding of what it looks like when you actually forgive and move forward.
Together.
Maestro: Can you talk about that pause? Anything you want to say about it. How do we there's a million questions I could ask but you know, I I would love for you to just riff on that pause and then we can go into Because it has the the the knee jerk reaction is like give me a list for the pause then Give me a task list.
I'll download the PDF and then I'll pause and we'll have world peace.
Dr. JPop: This is it. This is the transformation. Um, I think the pause to me is both for the energy to rest everything outside to rest. Um, and for us to actually sit with ourselves. And say, what's my code right now? What's, what's my code of ethics?
What's, what are my values? Because the closer I am to that, I talked about this in the mafia dinner, it becomes intuitive how you're going to move. It also becomes intuitive what you're going to accept, but right now, if you're leading with the energy, not saying that they're not an emergent groups that need us to move right now because ICE agents are real and people are truly afraid of for their lives, for their families, for their connection.
So yes, there are emergent things, but as far as the building of the community part right now, whoa, who are you in community? What does Community means to you, because if you don't know your code, if you don't know your values, the minute something comes up and there will be something that comes up that scares the living daylights out of you and pushes you into survival mode, you actually can become a threat in my community.
Yes. Because you're not even moving on their value, you're moving on the fear because it's disconnected from what you believe.
Maestro: 100%. So that,
Dr. JPop: that pause, which part?
Maestro: The moving, uh, speak. I want more words. I'd love more words. I want more words. More words to this, that reaction state and why, what happens, happens in that reaction state.
Dr. JPop: Yeah, I, I, I, fear is the one thing that most people are feeling right now. And it just so happens that the powers that be know that fear is their tool. Like, oh, we can get them into a state of terror. They're going to move. For themselves, and honestly, it's going to create a chaos that we can just let, we can just let it be right.
But if we stop and think what, what's going on right now, we're grieving because we know we've lost what was we're grieving because we're, we are seeing the possibility of the things we're going to lose right now. We don't, we have not completely lost everything, but we are seeing what we're losing and what could be on the dock and saying, well, what does that mean for me?
And. You're going through this while your life is like lifing like think about people right now in California who don't have a home and and you're watching the waters go the other way versus where they need to These are the things you're having to like hit your head against the wall and say, does this make sense?
No, it doesn't make sense. But one thing I said in an episode last year is not going to make sense. If you know the person that you want to be, if you know, you want to be someone who shows up for people. If you know, you want to be someone that is in community that cares about people and puts people before money, people before politics, people before all of these systems that have been created.
If you know, that's what you want to do. You will move that way. But if you don't know, And you just keep checking off the list, it causes you to say, well, I keep calling my senators. It looks like the empire is falling right now. And have, have my senators, are they even in the room right now? Have I heard from them?
Like, these are the questions you start to ask and say, well, is my energy best use there? Or do I need to look in my city and say, what's on our docket to lose? And what, where could I show up in, in that community? So when I say pause, I'm saying pause and just ask some questions, ask yourself some questions first.
Because it will also change the energy you put out in the world, which we don't need any more chaos. We don't. We're good. We're good on that. Um, and it also changes what you're looking for when you get on these platforms.
Maestro: Writing the things down. So I don't forget. Y'all, you've listened to this podcast for however long.
Y'all know that I project J pop on a bunch. I've also brought on Laura Jean a bunch. And the reason I. bring on Laura Jean so much is, it's at the heart of this, everything that Dr. J Pop is saying right now of who are you? What are your values? What matters to you? And I know that for many of the listeners, especially those that are race and socialized female, maybe you were never asked, maybe you were never given a moment to think about that.
But that's also why I do the work that I do is to be like, Hey, today, we take a moment and think about this, right? Y'all know that for me, action is always the answer. Sometimes if you, uh, act first, think later, it becomes problematic, but I will say, because I know that people are like, well, then what do I do?
Everything I do is wrong. As I act first, that's a problem. If I don't do stuff, what I'm hearing Jennifer say is that if, if your values are at the heart. I'm going to use my word of the year at the root of everything. I, you take an action and then you say, you get a moment to be like, is this helping? Why did I take this action?
Oh, because I'm the type of person that does this. This is a value of mine. This, this, I value this thing and this is my value. Right? This is one of my values. So, this is why I did that thing. Okay, now I can say, is it actually moving me, us, the collective, towards what I want? No? Okay, then we can take that energy and go in this direction.
Because I fear that when people And people hear like, Oh, I did something. I called my senators and you're telling me that it's not right. And it's like, she didn't say that.
Dr. JPop: Yeah.
Maestro: And I think the majority of you listening know that, but I'm going to just fucking say it just in case any of you are like, I'm just trying to help.
Love it. We just always ask, why am I, why do I do what I do? I, is it because it's my value or because it's what someone else wants? Someone else values. I, this, this goes for anything. Like, why are you showing up in that way? Why are you, why is this your profession? Why are you wearing those clothes? All the things, why do I do this?
Is it rooted in my own values? Okay. Is it being helpful? Is it moving things in the direction? No. Okay. Then, then we can do something, you know, moving, moving a different direction because I, I do see that of, we want to help, we want things to be done. Right. We want to help. We also like, don't want this feeling of like, I have no control.
It's chaos. So like, I'm gonna just do something.
Dr. JPop: Yeah. Which
Maestro: we can be more efficient and effective. Yeah.
Dr. JPop: Yeah. Like, and, and like you said, it comes from the root of why. When I have spent these years talking about a system that isn't equitable. Watching it fall. It's kind of like, I mean, guys, but that's my perspective.
That leads me to say my task will not be calling my senators one. I'm in a bloody red state. So they, I'm just, I know how that works, but it also doesn't discount those who have been able to do it and have been able to, but the intuit intuition is what I really want for people to realize is that Yeah. If, if you are really putting your finger on the pulse of what's happening and not just the fear, but like looking at the chain of events, you will know which action step you need to take.
Maestro: I want to circle back or highlight that because I think that there is perhaps an underlying or unspoken fear. When you tell someone to trust themselves, that can be really scary for people.
Dr. JPop: Like,
Maestro: I'm like, you tell me and I'm like, no shit. That's the only person I trust you, me and Jennifer and Rupert, like, it's fine.
But for many people saying, trust your gut is a scary thing, or it could be scary because it's unfamiliar or they're like, but how do I know? Like, I want to, but. Any thoughts around that?
Dr. JPop: Yeah, I think, no, no, no, there's this, that, I think that's part of that pause too, because if, if that brings fear, why does it bring fear?
I would want to know, like, what about that in, what about even me saying that makes you say, but how do I trust myself? I know it's because how our society has worked, is it? It has done overtime work to disconnect us from self, to make us think in many ways we were choosing our paths, but we were still choosing a path that benefited a very few, a very few.
I'm not even, let's not, let's take the isms away and look at the power structures. It benefited a very few. And now that we've made progress in people saying, I'm not going to do it that way. I refuse to do it the way that I was taught. I don't want to get that degree, but I do want to do this work. So I'm going to find a way because I want to help people.
People are starting to become aware or. The term that everybody has been using on, you know, it's woke. Like that's what woke is. Woke is knowing yourself. It's literally like all, all, all you are is awake to yourself and, and your place in the world, in the context of the world. And then you move accordingly.
So I would say that fear makes sense right now. The next question I would say is. What's your relationship with discomfort? Because there is going to be a lot of it as you learn to trust yourself. And truthfully, the only way to trust yourself is to do the next best thing that you feel, and then see what the impact of that was on you, because you may have to calibrate.
Again, this is, I said this in 2020, it was in a different context, but in trusting yourself, you're going to make mistakes, but those mistakes are the things that help you calibrate that intuition. It doesn't mean you stop at all. It just means, okay, so like, let's. Let's see what happened here. Like, where was the gap?
Or was this just the wrong move and I missed the cue? Oh, well, I'm going to try again the next time. Then I'm going to see how much more comfortable I can get. Your measures change. Your measures change in terms of what you feel like. I'm just comfortable making a mistake now. Okay, that's good because you know yourself and you know I'm resilient.
I'm going to do it differently the next time and I'm not going to stop. So in order to get that internal knowing that discernment inside, if there is no spiritual practice for you right now, it's really saying I'm committed to the discomfort of figuring out how to trust myself so that I can know myself.
Maestro: Can you put words to the discomfort? I know it's gonna be different for everybody, but you work with a lot of people.
Dr. JPop: And
Maestro: how has that perhaps manifested for people or shown up for people?
Dr. JPop: The discomfort usually, and I'm gonna tell you, it shows up in productivity. It shows up in, hmm, I'm just gonna do.
Because this discomfort, if at least I do something, I'm productive while I'm uncomfortable. Case in point. Last year, I knew I needed to start my second season of the podcast after the election. Knew it. But there have been so much time in between of observation and stuff that was, dots were connecting that I was like, no, I haven't, haven't had episodes.
I need to start a season two. And then I started it and I was like, this don't feel right. This doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel like what people even want to hear right now. And I, after two episodes, I had to pause. So, for me, at that moment, I realized, man, productivity won, I didn't win, my intuition didn't win in that moment, and yes, that was a public thing that I had to do, but when I came back, I was able to say, y'all, I messed up on the timing, I messed up on the timing, and I chose some, I chose a value that was not mine anymore, because it was comfortable, and now I realize that was not the move.
Question for you. Yeah. When you
Maestro: stopped the podcast, did you die? No. No. No.
Dr. JPop: No, I lived more actually. I had a lot of life, a lot of life that I can bring. So no, I did not die. Y'all,
Maestro: this is the shit we've been talking about for six years specifically on this podcast, all this bullshit of perfectionism and all this other stuff.
And I say bullshit in the most like kind, loving way and also equally frustrated way of this. These are all things that are imposed externally, right? That was just like, you're supposed to do this. You should do this. You should be able to do this. And then if you can't, you're just like, I am bad. Then you take it on.
I am bad. I am not worthy. I am going to lose my most sacred thing, which is community. I, no one's going to talk to me. I'm going to be excommunicated. I'm going to die. Right. From all of that, you literally are like, if I stop this podcast episode, then all of those thoughts just went through your head and then you're like, I'm going to die.
Yeah, and it's not the case, right? The system would have you believe that, but reality has shown us time and time again that that's not the case. Even with cancel culture, I just want to bring, I do want to bring that up in circle back. I've said since day one, cancelling is not a thing. It doesn't exist. As long as you keep showing up, because think about the worst fucking person you can think about.
They still have a fucking audience all their shit and has been thrown in the street the trash bags are in the street We see all of it and they're still fucking got an audience. They still have their shit Is it easier for some people than others? Yes, I will say the both end of that I but the what I'm getting at here is if you keep showing up, you're okay Ideally, you've learned from what this thing had this thing that happened and we course correct.
I don't use were correct. We change directions Right. And we learn from this thing.
Dr. JPop: Yeah.
Maestro: We get, okay. We become more okay. Making quote unquote mistakes. Right. But I want us all to understand this and circling back to like having taken an action and like, Oh, I did the wrong thing. Okay. What now? All right.
Okay. What now? It doesn't mean sprint in a new direction. Literally J pop is explaining here. It's take a pause. And as you're taking a pause and thinking about these things, I would love for you to have that underlying safety that you're going to be okay. All right. Our nervous system. We could take it back to where J pop and I first met physical therapy, your nervous system is always seeking safety.
So all the fucking things you do, what can I do to be, and this, some of this is a perception of safety. It may not be actually the safest, but it's perception of safety. So if we can go into this with, I'm going to be okay. I'm not going to be excommunicated. Let me take a moment. Why did I do the things that I did?
What does it mean? What are my values? And then we can move forward from there. And if you stop your podcast, if you, if you dive into productivity as the answer and then you're like, wait, it feels bad in my body. If I want to highlight, she said that she's like, I feels bad. We all know that folks, you all know that whether or not you feel comfortable saying, I trust my gut, you all know that feeling.
If you have that feeling and then you take a pause, and that means that you have to stop the thing you were doing, you have to stop the podcast, you're not going to die. You're not going to die.
Dr. JPop: It says something important too, the perception of safety. That is important, important. Because If you don't trust yourself, if you don't feel that you have intuition, if you don't feel like you have discernment, then what you perceive as safety might not be your own either.
That's And so writing down, hey, what does safety feel like? And it may feel weird. You may say things that you actually don't, and then when you realize in practice, actually that's not safety, that's just comfort. Then Familiar. Then you get to actually feel and say, I'm safe around this person, I feel safe in this class.
I feel safe when I'm with this group of people. Like then you get to actually tap in and say, but this is when my body says I'm safe. Then it changes for you. Yes. So when the fear is entered, when the fear is tapped into or triggered or something comes up, then you can say, but I said that I have safety in this, this, this, and this.
Can I just go spend time there so my body can feel it while I'm in the discomfort?
Maestro: We're gonna keep going down with this this this this path because that perceived safety one of the things you had said earlier Was what did I read grieving grieving the loss of what was and I'm like this happened in kovat and people were like We just like gotta go back and I'm like to what? It's bad.
It's not good there. But it was familiar.
Dr. JPop: It was.
Maestro: And familiar, familiar misery feels way safer than whatever's over there. You're like, but I know what's coming. I know. I know what's there, right? This perception. And then fast forwarding in the record in the podcast episode to what you had just said of, uh, that that can ultimately end up being harmful for you.
And that's what we're seeing right now, right? Where it's like 2020 came for black people and then 2025 was like, no, actually we're here for everybody. All of you, this system that, that is in place in the United States. It's here for all of you. Are you a billionaire? Okay, then it's coming for you.
Dr. JPop: It's coming for you.
Maestro: It's coming for you. I don't care what color. Are you a billionaire? Do you have a billion dollars? Get the fuck out.
Dr. JPop: Yeah, it's funny because I think that actually perpetuated some of the allyship. Missteps too was when we're using these terms, when we're having these workshops, when we're talking about these things, we're trying to become better informed so that when one group is weaponized against another, you can see the truth underneath it.
You can see the through line of history and the patterns of dysfunction. That's the part that we were, we were separating it all. And so people didn't feel like, oh, it could never be me because in history. I wasn't on the end of that.
I wasn't on the receiving end.
Maestro: Y'all, we are a bunch of movement professionals, and if we relate that to the human body, that's like the elbow being like, yo, that was a fucking knee problem. That shit ain't coming from me. That systemic issue, that's for a knee. Y'all, all of us. All of us, all of us, all of us, all of us.
And I do think, you know, when I sit, I sit and I scroll, but also like, I do think, I do have hope and I do think people are getting it. I do think that people left to their own devices, humans are good and left to their own devices. Humans will create, humans are incredible. I mean, there's this narrative out there, the human's bad and if they're left to their own devices, they're not going to work.
They're lazy. And I'm just like, no. History has actually taught us that. Like, I'm not making this up. This is not like, I think this, like, this is science. This is, we can go and see, like, look at all this shit that was built. We still exist. Why? Like, left to your own devices. I do have a lot of hope. And I do think we are capable of a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think I know the, the, the powers that be.
Power wants to hold on to power. It wants to
Dr. JPop: hold on. Power over. Especially that type of power, the power over something versus actually empowering. And the goal is we want to switch to that empowering side where we can empower each other to actually be ourselves and know ourselves and see our gifts and also see them in the The community that you are in.
Maestro: I love this. I love this. I love this. Because I know folks that are listening right now are going to be like, Maestro, you told me you don't like that word empower. I don't. Because how most people think of it and use it is actually overpower of like, I'm going to give you power. Right? I mean, it's like you have none and I'm going to give you power.
We can actually take a step back and think about the initial step of this
Dr. JPop: is what J Papa
Maestro: has been talking about. The best thing that you can do for other people is to pause and know yourself. I start there. What are your roots? What is your, why the best, the best thing? Cause as soon as you should, we know, right.
I put this in the, uh, where did I share this? I'd be talking a lot. I think I put it in the mafia. So some of you don't know this. Uh, but I went ice skating and my skates was broken half, right? The skates are from high school. They just disintegrated. And so I put in my story that I, um, when I skating and Beth Dreyer messaged me, um, was just like.
Yo, I've been wanting to go ice skating, but I can't find anyone to go and she's like, you know what this inspired me I'm gonna go ice skating and I was like watch out that your skates don't disintegrate and she was like actually mine did and She's like I guess got new ones and I was like, oh the weather here.
I should literally J pop is fucking disintegrated No, just I believe it just crumbled. So she had gotten your skates and she's like, I'm gonna go She went ice skating put it in her stories and she was like, yo, I got mad people They were like, hey, you want to go ice skating? Hit me up And I was like, yes, we know this, the best way to get people to do something is to do it first yourself.
That's the best way to inspire. And yes, there's action after that, but as a start, so the best way that we can have people, if we're looking to lean into this pause and be rooted, be grounded, identify your values is to do that first yourself. That is to me, the most empowering thing of you showing up like that.
As opposed to like, I have all this privilege and I'm going to be bequeath it onto you. Like, there's a, there's a difference in how we view this and what I believe the action items are with that. But I love that the J pop highlighted that concept of overpower or over culture. Cause that is what we see.
And that's why, you know, the power that they want to, folks that have this, they want to hold on to that shit. I think you're great.
Dr. JPop: I think a great, uh, practice is, since we are used to being told what to do, we feel like we have to ask for permission. And so you putting it in your stories, Beth putting it in her stories, is Someone saying that we can do that right now.
Like that's something that I used to love maybe. And I, I just don't do anymore because I thought we did it as kids or we did it as, you know, as a hobby. And so if you're still in that framework, I understand it's hard to come out of it. So look for the things that light you up or the things that fire you up and just consider that the permission.
If you, if you get a re emotional reaction to it, consider that permission to be curious about why that touched you because it's, it's going to take a minute. Like you said, be trusting yourself. It's going to take a minute in that, but you can still look for the cues that come in from outside. That say to you, hey, hey, hey, we like that.
That sounds good. No, we don't like that. We want to stand up against that. That, that is how you can use the framework that they've used against us. So that you can free your mind and free yourself to be more intuitive and be more curious.
Maestro: What would you say to folks that are grappling with the both and of like the both and I'm just gonna go with that.
With the both and of is this hiding, is this putting my head in the sand doing that is leaning into that. Just putting my head into the sand. What is there a, is there a demarcation between, uh, um, what is the word I want to use? Is there a demarcation between positive toxic positivity and. Can you, can you just give us some words around that?
Dr. JPop: Yeah. I, you know, I, I love to look back at the different Renaissance eras in black history. Um, because even in the midst of civil rights fights and. Protest and segregation, in the middle of all of that, there was all this art that came out of it. And some of it was protest music, some of it was protest art, some of it was just, this is what I'm feeling and I gotta get it out.
You said we are creative beings. Right. Um, if we are trying to become creative and intuitive beings in terms of our communities, then ask yourself when you're doing something, am I choosing joy with the knowledge that I will come back and face this? Or am I choosing joy because I don't want to process what emotion is being brought up for me when I'm faced with this?
And answer it truthfully because you're the one asking it. That, that is to me the delineation between toxic positivity. And actually say, no, I'm choosing joy in this moment because the new world that we're creating, it's going to have joy too. We don't bury joy because right now it's not necessary. Why is it not says they told us that when we fight, we can't be joyful.
They told us that we can't have, we can't laugh. I will be post, if you don't want to follow me, don't follow me if you don't want to laugh in the middle of all of this, because you're going to get the joy I needed. I needed to continue doing what I'm doing because that's what full life looks like. Those that's what meeting my basic needs looks like is saying I gotta find the hope.
I gotta find the joy because what I'm doing is in the trenches right now y'all. It's dark down here and I can't be a light if I don't find light at some point. That just doesn't work for me. I can't stay always in the light because then I wouldn't. What's the point? Yes. But using that framework can really help you know what you're doing.
And also, stop judging people. Stop judging people. How people respond right now is not your business. It's really not. Everybody's nervous system is responding based off their greed cycle, their growth cycle, and whatever setting they're cued to. Fight, flight, fall, freeze, whatever it is. Everybody's in that mode right now.
So your judgment really isn't necessary. You moving intentionally is what we need.
Maestro: You know, one of the things, one, I'm laughing because I'm thinking about the meme, it wasn't a meme, it was a reel that you put up and Chick is running out the White House and she's like, I took all the pens. I thought she was funny.
I took all the pens. I laughed at that for 30 minutes. You can't say anything else now. I stole all the pens. I thought she was funny. That shit was funny. I needed it. I needed it.
Funny. The, the follow up to that is one of the things that, that, uh, James Olivia speaks about, right? You know, you're going to judge, right? It's not, it's not necessarily, uh, productive, but we can flip it and make it productive. That's it. Why? Why? Judgment is going to happen. Judgment is right. But it's, it's, it's, it is.
What I, what I hear when Daypop is saying that is don't fucking go and put it on Instagram. Don't put it on threads. All I see on threads is people just judging and being like, how come you didn't boycott this thing? My fuck, cause I gotta eat today. Like that's why. Have your judgment. Yes. And process it with your people on the phone.
Dr. JPop: Yeah,
Maestro: or in your text thread. I don't need to see it on threads. Nobody else needs to see it on threads.
Dr. JPop: And it helps. I need to change how I say that because like you just don't follow through with your judgment.
Maestro: Don't fucking make it in the newspaper. Like yeah, it is so helpful to me. The judgment is helpful if we take a pause like JPaw's been saying this whole time and say why?
Why am I judging this person?
Dr. JPop: Because I'm
Maestro: mad? Because I wish they were saying more? Well, why am I mad? What is it? And have I, have I, how have I shown up and my Mac, I didn't show up enough or am I mad because like this person asks me for stuff and then they don't, I don't know what the situation is and I'm based off of, I have plenty of judgments.
I don't want to put them on Instagram. One judgment that I did put was I don't like walking the fucking dog though. And then a million people wrote it and I was like, I wasn't even judgment actually. It was my personal experience of this is unpleasant.
Dr. JPop: Yeah, that's different.
Maestro: This is fucking unpleasant.
And then the whole world was like, ah, you don't like dogs. And I was like, this is why nothing goes on the fucking internet.
Dr. JPop: Cause there's no
Maestro: nuance, which is what I wrote down on my little whiteboard over here that what, what J pop is saying and asking for is, is discernment and nuance. It's effort, right?
All of this takes effort, right? The, the question that she posed that I made sure that we had a pause after there, right? The, the delineation between toxic positivity and like, listen, joy is period. That was what she asked for was like, you gotta take a moment. And have discernment and have nuance and be introspective and be reflective, but it, it takes effort.
Like all of these things take effort and they take intentional effort. We have the ability to put in effort, but sometimes we're like, I'm running away and I'm just keeping busy work, but can we take a moment and sit? And be intentional. I really, I think I want to circle back to this, this discomfort. And mainly I think I'm asking and pressing you for continued words and language, because I think like things are less scary when they happen and we expect it, or we've like heard it before.
We're like, oh, okay, well that's the thing that J pop said. And it's still discomfort, but like. I don't know. It's kind of like jumps us forward in that process of like, first is like awareness and it's like, Hey, I'm aware of it. Cause I have words already for like what this discomfort manifests as like, what else have you seen?
If, if you can think of any other examples.
Dr. JPop: So I feel like a lot of the examples right now have been pre election right now. So when you look at discomfort, the discomfort itself makes sense. Let's put that out there. Let's validate the discomfort because you are watching things happen at an alarming rate and you have no clue, right?
So there are a lot of questions coming up for you, like, you know, am I going to have a job? Am I going to be able to make money? Am I, am my kids going to have a school to go to? I can't pay to send them to a voucher system school because I can't pay. There's a lot of day to day interaction, things that are coming up that make that discomfort make sense.
When I talk about discomfort in terms of yourself, I mean something that convicts you. Something that convicts you of something you believe, a former belief, a former value, that you see something that agitates it. and takes the foundation of a lot of what you've believed and says, what does that mean? One, you're usually asking, what, what have I been doing then is usually the one question.
Cause we tend to regret, um, as humans. And then the next question is, what does that mean? What's next then that same thing when you were saying that it's. That comfort of the familiar. Well, this belief is familiar though. So why would I change it if it's gotten me this far? And then that comes to that shared reality we've talked about.
It's gotten you this far, but we're going to need more than you in order to make all of this something different. Right? So when I say discomfort, I expect you to look at the news and be like, Ooh, this does not feel good. I feel it in my chest. I feel it in my voice. I feel it. I feel it all in my body. Yes.
Now, when something comes and it agitates you and your identity, what do you do? What do you do next? Do you rush to be seen as a good person so you try to learn everything so that you can make up for the mistake that you just need to grieve, baby? It happened. You didn't have the skill set or the tools at that moment, but that doesn't mean you won't meet the next moment.
differently. So to me, if you get that discomfort itself, then say I will meet the next moment differently because you're going to learn things in between now and the next time that comes up that will aid you in meeting that moment. Don't mean you're going to do it perfectly. Doesn't mean you're not, it's not going to be a mistake or even another blow up or something, but you can still say that affirmation of I'm going to meet the next moment differently.
Maestro: This, I hope it doesn't. I'm going to, I'm going to ask, I'm going to add and ask. Okay. Because, one of the things you said there, like, yes, that's huge and stood out. Do I rush to be seen as a good person? We've, we've, we've, take it back to what we said before, why do we want to be seen as a good person? Being part of community, we know that being independent, being on your own, rather than not being independent, being on your own.
Our chemistry, our biology is like, you're going to die then. A wolf is going to eat you if you're on your own, right? We, we understand this, but we don't, that's why embarrassment is the worst fucking feeling because what happens next is that it's like excommunication, right? There's a difference. If you take the pause, I'm just going to, this episode is about to be called the pause, right?
If you take the pause that J pop is speaking about and, and do that five year old drill of, but why, but why? Because there's a difference between saying. The mistake is I rush to be seen as a good person or being like, is it that I hurt someone? There are very different things in terms of what we're gonna act on next, right?
And we're gonna act to try and do better, right? Is it that like if we just don't take a pause and we this thing happens and then we're like I feel this way and I feel this way because and all that we're really able to kind of center is ourselves and our experience in this feeling I, I feel bad because I did something wrong.
Then you just try to change that versus if it's like, what does that mean? And we tied into your values. You're like, Oh, cause I like actively hurt someone. Oh, okay. So now why did I hurt them? Like in terms of like how, what was it? What was the thing there? Okay. We have a more tangible action item, a more tangible direction.
As well, right? So what I, what I, the question here is, can you speak to this, um, I don't know, maybe delineation of centering yourself versus centering others, because there is that inherent, I need to feel safe, but there is a shared reality and there is safety, more safety when actually we're all considered.
We're also have the swing of the pendulum where people that were never perhaps asked, what do you feel? What do you believe it can then they're like, but this is what I feel now and I'm centered that Can you speak to that? I don't know maybe the balance the dance of centering yourself centering others You can use whatever words if you're like, I don't even fucking say centering whatever.
Dr. JPop: Mm hmm I think you perspective then shared reality are the two things your perspective on the moment is still important because you do need to ground yourself in why You're likely feeling defensive about the moment you do that. That ha that has to happen, but the impact of what happened was harm. And.
You can't change what you did, but you can be curious about how you can repair first. Repair. Because this, this overarching umbrella that we've labeled good person right now. What does that even mean? Because if we're going to use the term good, then what does bad mean for you? Like, there's so many ways that we use that for ourselves as a shield.
And it's like, but it actually keeps us from that connection and curiosity piece. And so if I say I'm yes to myself, I harmed you. In my head I need to say am I safe right now? Is this a safe environment? If you can say yes, then tell yourself I'm safe right now. Now, what would I like to come from how I approach this?
Because you've answered the question. Anything else that you choose, that's your choice. Right? If you still say, I want to defend myself, I want to, well, that was a choice and you're, you're going to meet the moment again and you're going to have another choice. That's you. There's no judgment from me. It's just, you're going to have to learn as you go as well as we all do.
But if you can stop and say, I am safe. This is a moment where I get to connect and understand someone a little better, but also understand not only their perspective, but how my perspective impacts their perspective. and their lived experience. So it's really just stopping at that part and acknowledging the safety then if that's what you want to feel and then moving from there.
Knowing that yes, it is uncomfortable as hell when you have hurt somebody and your intention was not to. Yes.
Maestro: I will throw in there as I have another question. I do things face to face folks. Whatever you can, do things face to face. It is really hard to be angry with somebody face to face. You'd be mad as hell in the shower.
You'd be winning all them arguments in the shower. Like, I'm going to fucking say this and they're going to say this next and I'm going to say fucking that. And then you like are with them and you're like, hi, hi, how are you doing? Okay. So, just a thought, do things face to face, like have the conversations face to face.
Which brings me to the question I had. I am going to ask for a little bit of a list here, not to check it off and be like, I'm done, but again, I think there's something to be said about, uh, putting language out there, putting identifiers out there so that we have a foundation for things. You said, ask yourself if I am safe, can you give, and everyone's is going to be different, but can you give some examples?
I understand that things are going to be different, but I, I just feel like if, if I allowed that just to be put out there as the action item,
Dr. JPop: people are going to be like,
Maestro: I'm not safe. And I'm like, you're just uncomfortable.
Dr. JPop: But you're safe. But that's, that's going to be the question is, are you feeling unsafe or are you feeling uncomfortable?
That's the additive you can put on there. Am I feeling unsafe or am I feeling uncomfortable? Um, Safe can look different. If I have done something that has escalated to a point where nobody's being heard, there is not the opportunity for conversation, um, and maybe I harmed somebody and there are supporters.
So it actually physically is not safe. First of all, do you have a connection with that person? Because if you have a connection with that person and say, I understand, I have harmed, and I, you are genuinely apologizing for the harm that you caused, even if you did not intend it. And then say, I would love to revisit this when you are ready and.
That's how you can say, at least I'm following up on this and actually do follow up. But when I say safe, that still may be a prompt for you to go back and say, well, what is safety to me? That because then you can say, and then what is my relationship with discomfort? Because knowing those two, those two and what's behind them will allow you in the moment to integrate and say, well, I'm feeling uncomfortable.
Let's go ahead and base this right on.
Maestro: That in mind, follow up, one of the things that I've, I did know that I wanted to talk to you about on this podcast, on this episode is, and this, this to me, it ties into both of those things of safety and discomfort.
When the goal is changed, when the desire is change to me, part of that, whether it's an action step or the counterpart or whatever is
risk. It is losing things that were, can you speak to your experience on? With that, where perhaps, and for the audience, where my brain is, is this is like a situation where you're like, this is the outcome I want, and that outcome requires me to risk this familiarity, this comfort that I have. But if I want to go to this, if I want to step onto that, you know, I'm thinking about this, if I can, if I can, I don't really go to them, the little like, um, team building parks,
Dr. JPop: right?
Maestro: Where the wood fucking you're like on a harness. And it's like, if I want to get to that step, I got to let go of this little rope that I have here. Is there anything that you want, any instances or anything you want to share around that could be actual thing could be thoughts around it, just. I have been thinking about that a lot.
Dr. JPop: It's so funny. I don't know if you remember years ago, I shared a video of a little boy who. Could was on the bed and there were all these pillows around him and he wanted to get from the bed to the floor And so he had a little pacifier in his mouth and he's crawling around and he's looking She puts his foot down.
He realized I can't reach it. So he looks around Pulls a pillow and drops all these pillows and then he takes his passive out because he's serious. And he's like, I'm getting off of this bed and he's doing it all by himself, probably less than two years old. And then finally he gets enough pillows and He grabs his pacifier, puts it in his mouth, and then reaches down and gets off the bed.
And when I saw it, of course, I'm like, cutest little thing when kids like try to figure things out. But also there was one thing that I noticed was his pacifier came with him, took his pacifier out for a moment. It was something that was safe to him. It was something that was secure to him. And he put it back in to make the journey.
And I, the second time I watched the video, I was like, man, there's. There is something about trying something new that requires you to hold something familiar.
So in this moment with what's going on, I can't say what everybody's going to lose. I don't, I don't know what that's going to look like, but this is why the pause is important to me, because if I can stop and actually name things, then I have created a toolbox internally that says it's going to be uncomfortable for me to let this go, but here's what I have.
Here's the practices that I have that are going to allow me to forge new paths. The, I don't have specific examples for me. is more of moving out of the way sometimes. Um, I, there was a period of time where I was asked to be along a lot of panels. And because I'm very aware that I am a light skin black woman, I also know I'm more palatable in a lot of different spaces.
Unfortunately, people will pick me because I'm closer to what's familiar in that space, which means there are a lot of darker skin, beautiful black, intelligent women who aren't getting. The space they should be having because of someone's comfort, because of someone's familiarity, because of someone wanting to feel secure and having a face that looks like what they're used to.
So there were several times when I had to say, I'm a bow out and here's someone that I suggest in my stead. Was I upset? Because I was like, that was money and I need it. I'm an entrepreneur. This is uncomfortable. Yeah. Oh, you don't know what my bank account looks like right now. I am uncomfortable, but because I Don't just know what's going on in my community.
I know what's going on in someone else's community because I've had to walk through it. I get to make the choice of how I'm going to make that impact, whether there's risk discomfort or not, because I know what's what I value. I know what I hold and I feel better. My body feels better because even if I lost money, It'll come in another format, you know, that abundance mindset.
But what I got to do was say, now we changing culture. And if we're changing culture, it changes how I move. Another thing we do, we, our lotions don't come from the store. Like a lot of the stuff in my household does not come from the actual store. And this has been. Four years in the making when everything happened with COVID, I realized I'm going to have to start learning how to garden.
And
Maestro: I think about that every day. And I'm like, I think I'm just going to die.
Dr. JPop: No, you're going to be leading. You're going to be leading workouts and somebody else will supply the toilet paper. It's going to be a give and take partner system. But in that, in those practices, it, it isn't me going to target Clearly and getting lotion is ordering from a black owned business who's going to take two or three weeks.
And yes, I'm comfortable, but I know what I'm supporting. I know what I am getting. So this is why I'm saying pause. It's, it's the, it is the values that keep me. And it doesn't mean I don't make mistakes. I can list a bunch of them in the last year that I probably made. But if I keep coming back, what do I say?
I will meet the next moment differently. Because I have my code that I'm holding on to.
Maestro: This, this, this, so much of it. I'm thinking in my head, yes I'm gonna say it and then I'm gonna transition. Nothing is too small of an action. Nothing is, is like too benign. And I, maybe that's a really good word to use, benign.
Because I mean, if you hear benign, you hear cancer.
Dr. JPop: We think cancer.
Maestro: And if someone was like, no, but it's just a dot. You'd be like, motherfucking take it off! I don't want it. I don't want that. I don't care if it's the size of a pinhead. It's fine. No, it matters.
Dr. JPop: It
Maestro: doesn't matter that it's so small because it matters, right?
Dr. JPop: Yeah.
Maestro: You are actions that way, like shopping, changing where you get your stuff from. You may be like, ah, like if it doesn't matter, then like do that. If you're like, ah, do it. Because we do like lean into the comforts of like overnight shipping and all this other shit. It's like, okay, nothing is too Small no action is too small.
Like it all helps it all matters. So the segue here just gonna transition here Because one of the ways that I help out right in ways that I've learned of like what I can do is obviously giving other People a platform and championing them to that end What do you got coming for us?
Dr. JPop: Yeah, so I'm actually working on a resource that helps us Learn how to meet this moment in the best way with some frameworks and just prompts and action steps that aren't all just doing outside of yourself, but also working within Some ways that we can prepare for the unknown And sit with the discomfort of preparing for the unknown Um, and then in March, I will be doing a version of a workshop that I did at Boss Up, um, called It Starts With You, where we're going to unpack how we got here in terms of your own individual identity and how it developed.
So those are the two things that are coming up on the docket. I'm playing with an idea, and we'll see. I kind of want to just Get on Instagram maybe once a week and let's just like breathe and talk about what we're doing. Let's not talk about what's going on upstairs. Let's not talk about the chaos.
Let's talk about what we are doing for ourselves. Um, so, you know, if you sign up for the newsletter, follow me, then you'll get all of my ideas and everything else, but that's what's coming up.
Maestro: I love all this stuff will be in the show notes. My guess is also by the time this episode comes out, that you'll be able to register for I'm actually going to say it.
You'll be able to register. This is J pop's on the hook. You will be able to register. She knows me so well,
Dr. JPop: y'all. She knows me so well.
Maestro: When this comes out, you will be able to head to the show notes and clicky click tappy tap and sign up for the workshop that the J pop is running. Uh, because I already had it done.
That's why I can push her on that. Um, because I was privy to the first iteration of that at boss up and it, it was so cool. Because again, I am privy to an audience that, uh, I, I don't know that Jennifer J. Pop would, would be in front of just organically. And so to have her in this room and have every single person just locked in and dialed in and being like, I never knew, but also that makes so much fucking sense.
And also I have kids and now I really am listening. People got kids, you talk, talking about kids, it's just like, whoa,
Dr. JPop: whoa,
Maestro: whoa. I see. I understand. It was, it was really, it was special to be, it's what, it's special thing. And one of the coolest parts about my existence is that I, for whatever reason, am fortunate to have a front row seat to a lot of things when they first.
And when this is a little fucking seedling and I'm like, I seen it go in, I seen it sprout. And so that was really cool. Cause I get to see that. And now you folks will get to see the second iteration of that. So you'll be able to sign up. It will be in. The show notes. I'm looking at my list of stuff. Is there anything?
Hold on. Let me look over here. I do as well is There anything that you that we didn't go over that I didn't cover from my list night that you can see it That you want to chat about.
Dr. JPop: Um, keep the hope y'all. That's really it. Keep the hope. And when you find yourself slipping out of it, uh, one practice I have is actually going back and listening to older activists, authors, um, humans who lived through moments like this.
Because we are facing something that feels absolutely crazy, but it's really we're facing a consequence. of a lot of years behind us. So it's, it is cool to go back and hear, you know, the James Baldwins, someone presently with us, Angela Davis, even, you know, activists and people that came out of the Holocaust, out of apartheid.
Some of the stuff that happened in Venezuela just last year, like there's enough out there that gives us that privies us to say, Oh, there's people who've been through something like this. What did they do? And there's some comfort and camaraderie in that. Um, so that keep the hope, keep the hope because there's a need for it.
And there's a need for you in this new world we're building.
Maestro: That's it folks. I ain't gonna say nothing else. All of Dr. J Pop's stuff, all of the links, will be in the show notes if you want to connect with her on Instagram, she's at Dr. J Pop. Uh, we'll put all the things though, will be in the show notes.
Cool? Yeah? Good? Yeah? Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Dude, thank you for being you. Thank you for being you. You folks listening, thank you for tuning in. We know you could have been doing anything and you chose to listen to us. And for that we are both endlessly, endlessly, endlessly grateful. I'm not gonna ask for any call, I don't want any calls to action.
Now go do this thing or go send this thing, listen to this, send it to somebody. The thing that I will ask is if you liked it, you loved it, you hated it, take a pause. Take a pause, all right? Take a pause. All right, that's all that we got for you. Until next time, friends, Dr. J Pop and Maestro, out.
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